June 2011
30 posts
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
Oh don’t worry about it! Discussion religion and how people perceive the world is my favorite subject to talk about. Mainly because I love to hear how people see the world differently, and I love to see different takes on christianity.
That is such an excellent quote! I know I’ve heard it before, but it still rings so true. Thanks for hearing me out even though I pretty much contested your entire worldview. Glad to know I don’t sound entirely arrogant and judgmental. :P
I don’t think you’ll ever have a problem with this, given our discussion and how I saw you come across, but this is something I like to tell people, especially those who wish to convert me. ”You’ll never convince anyone of anything, unless you first try to understand things from their point of view.” The actual quote is from Hitchens, but I can’t remember what it is word for word.
Well of course I would love it if my words magically became profoundly eloquent and you were suddenly convinced to change everything about your entire belief system… but nope, I don’t think conversion works that way, and I definitely never had some underlying scheme to drastically alter your worldview. :D
Oh, ok, I understand. As long as you weren’t trying to convert me then. :P But yes, enjoyable discussion.
I apologize. My intentions were not to convert you to Christianity; in fact I think that would have been pretty much impossible! The reason why I chose to end the conversation was because I honestly couldn’t think of what else to say! I’ve shared with you my beliefs and opinions about everything you’ve said, and likewise I’ve heard yours… I guess I just got the vibe that our conversation was pretty much at a standstill, since we had agreed to disagree on mostly everything. :P
I can only assume that since you’re ending this conversation on my comment about me not caring about god, even if he did exist, that you’re entire purpose for this discussion was to convert me. I did enjoy our discussion, but had I known your agenda was to try to change my beliefs from the beginning, I never would have had this conversation with you to begin with.
Well, gingyninjy, I guess there’s really nothing else for me to say here. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you would rather go to hell and make your own choices in life than to reconsider Christianity. I understand though, I really do. I hope that in some way this conversation has been meaningful to you, because it’s definitely been quite thought-provoking and enjoyable for me! As you clearly alluded to, there is an unlimited number of questions that remain unanswered when it comes to faith and God. I’m thankful to have had this opportunity to flesh out some things and just talk about belief! I do hope that at some point in your life, you will be able to experience Jesus the way I have, because obviously I could never explain it fully or convince you how utterly desirable it truly is. Until then, or until whenever or forever, I wish you a life full of immense happiness. :)
I’m not a stranger to the good feelings you described getting in your belief in god. I know in my past notes I’ve only highlighted the bad parts, but I certainly know the good feelings people get in this religion. I have to say though, at least for myself, now being an atheist, I can look into my past, and even look at events going on with me right now, and pose the question, “did god do this?”. There is nothing that has ever happened to me or that is currently happening to me, that was incapable of happening without the existence of god. I know that when a person believes in god, when something happens, their natural instinct is to immediately thank god and see it as an act coming from him. I can just see how, whether or not god exists, there is nothing that has happened to me that couldn’t have happened without god being behind it.
When you speak of satisfaction, really the most I can say is, I feel more satisfaction without god. When I was in christianity, yes there was that feeling of satisfaction from god, but there was also a slight empty feeling. Like I was missing out on something, or that there might be something more. Though I knew hardly anything regarding any other belief systems outside my own, especially atheism [though I am not saying atheism is a belief system]. Hypothetically let’s say god is real. Heaven and hell are real and unless I change my ways, I’m going to hell. Under the pretenses that christianity is correct - it doesn’t matter to me. Even if I knew god was real, I wouldn’t follow him. Yes, I’d have to admit I’d believe in him, since I obviously knew he was real, but I would not accept him as my saviour. I would rather go to hell then follow god and go to heaven. I’d rather enjoy my life on earth and do what I wish to do without consequence than to feel imprisoned by biblical laws. I know that may sound extreme to you, but it’s just the way I feel about it.
Honestly, I don’t have a clue on how to stake the genuineness of a person’s faith on anything. This was something we often discussed in my bible study. “How do you know if you’re saved”. A myriad of questions were posed as to what you could do and remain saved. Such as, could you have honestly and truly accept god into your heart, and then proceed to live your life as if he never existed? Would you have truly been a christian? Could you accept god into your heart, and then live life in the most horrific and terrible way possible? Would god forgive you if before you died you asked for forgiveness, or were you never truly saved to begin with? Or, if you asked god to be your saviour, would you obtain a natural desire to follow his will and do good? If that’s the case, was I ever really a christian? Is there a certain amount a christian is able to sin before he sins too much and is deemed to never really have been saved to begin with?
I don’t think I’d necessarily say that I believe in god because it felt like a feeling. To me it was my question, “Do I believe in god?”, posed to myself, that ended it for me. I’m not saying that the realization that to me, god was but a feeling, didn’t have anything to do with it, because it did, but it wasn’t the main reason.
Well, this is all just my speculation on this subject, but, I would say that life does not have a point. There is no point to life. Why does there have to be a point? I know for a lot of people, that prospect is disturbing and unsettling. However, why do humans have to feel so self important that their lives have to have some significance? Do animals get a purpose? Do animals get to go to heaven? What is so different and special about us that we get to go to heaven, whereas animals and bacteria, and suns, and stars, and universes merely cease to exist, post having a meaningless life? To me, humans are no different than animals. I don’t require an inherent reason for life to be happy and to find beauty in everything. If anything, I find life more amazing when there is no reason for any of it. Beauty and kindness can exist for no purpose. Have you ever given a flower to a loved one, or helped a stranger for no other reason other than “just because”?
The difference between God and Jesus is this. God destroyed people for disobeying and not following him. Jesus gave people the choice, without consequence. Obviously later they would go to hell, but I meant with no direct consequence. Jesus, at least in my opinion, would be more apt to accept people with different ideas on life, and he would be more accepting of the “to each his own” philosophy.
Gingyninjy, I like you. Ha! Rather, I like this conversation and I’m glad we’re actually having it rather than me just creepin’ you out by reblogging your post with my life story. LOL :)
First of all, I want to clarify what I said about satisfaction. I do not believe that Christ is the way to be happy in life. In fact, I definitely will tell you that being a Christian does not equal perpetual happiness or some sort of supernatural delight. There are a lot of hardships that come from pursuing a life in Christ. However, I would still say that without a personal relationship with God, this life can never truly satisfy us. I keep throwing around the word “satisfaction,” so let me phrase it a little differently. People are born with a plethora of fleshly desires, or lusts as you truthfully put it. Filling those desires with other people and activities and things is something we do day after day. But the things of this world just do not compare to the things of God. 1 John 2:16 says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” It’s not that all these things aren’t great, positive things that are here for good reasons… but nothing of this world will stand in the end when it really matters.
I’m really sorry to hear that you had such a dreadful encounter with Christianity growing up. I can totally see how that would have pushed you away from God and away from strict principles and vague ideas associated with Christianity. But let me tell you that Christianity is more about what you do than what you don’t do. It’s not all about a set of rules, or church on Sunday, or how much you read the Bible. It’s not about saying no to sex and drugs and dating and all those things Christians can tell you to stay away from. It’s about Jesus Christ and what he did for you. It’s about knowing him and meeting him on a personal level. It’s about accepting the Grace of God revealed in the finished work of Christ.
If you stake the genuineness of your faith on how often you perform Christian practices or how “good” of a person you seem, then you haven’t experienced what it’s like to truly feel freedom. Trust me, I know what it’s like to feel freedom from rules and standards and nit-picky “Christian” things, but that is NOTHING compared to the freedom we have in Christ. John 8:32 says that when you know the Truth, it will set you free. Freedom in Christ means that God doesn’t expect you to be perfect because the chains of sin have been released.
It’s interesting to me that the main reason why you stopped pursuing Christianity was because it seemed like only a feeling. This is something that I have definitely been pondering lately. I’ve noticed that many people who grow up in different types of churches have experienced varying amounts of “feeling” when it comes to faith. Many people come to Christ because of an experience they’ve had where they really felt God’s presence or saw him working in their hearts. Someone once told me, “I met the joy of the Lord before I met the Lord.” When hardship came, and a lot of that joy went away, it was difficult for him to cling onto the person of Christ since a lot of his faith was based on experience. But through many prayers and through reading the Scriptures, he encountered the Lord in a much more substantial way than just his feelings.
Feelings come and go, but God remains the same. I rest in the fact that although I struggle to always feel Christ next to me or see God working around me, the Truth remains the same. For it is by Grace I have been saved. His Grace is like an ocean, and I’m sinking. He never lets go!
One more question I’d like to present… if each person creates their own meaning, what is the point of life? I would love some more insight into this idea, because I’ve encountered a lot of people with a similar frame of mind, but I haven’t been able to fully unravel it yet. I guess this concept brings me to imagine life beginning as a blank slate… each life paints another picture, and each person creates their own destiny in a way. But is there more? Does this slate rest on a single plane? That’s where I’d like to challenge this idea, but first I want to hear more. :)
I’ve really struggled to compose this post, because it’s hard to know how I will really come across in this kind of conversation. I want to love without condemnation, to speak with wisdom and without trepidation. I want to defy “to each his own,” but never to shoot down acceptance and humility. But I walk a fine line. I only hope that I can tread carefully, and my words can be used for good.
Well, I’m going to have to say I disagree with you about Christ being the only way to be fully happy for the rest of your life. I’ll try to explain this as short and sweet as I can, since when I tell this I tend to rant and give more details that I should. :P Since I was born, I was raised in a chrisitan home, I was always involved in religious stuff, I went to church all the time, I was homeschooled, so all my schooling and textbooks were made by christians that incorporated god into their ciriculum, and all my extraciricular activities were always either at the church, or some place that I would always be able to hear about god and stuff. Anyway, for the first 17 years of my life, I followed the teaching about god, because, well obviously because that’s what my parents had taught me. I had never really thought about my beliefs and why they were my beliefs or anything.
Now, I can honestly say, that being a christian, I went through some of the worst time in my life. I’m not saying I’m not going to experience anything worse, or that it was the worst that could ever happen to anyone, but I haven’t lived an awful long time, so I don’t have that much experience in the world to be able to say I’ve been devastated by anything, so at the moment, being a christian stays at the top. Anyway, I constantly felt like a crappy person when I was a christian. Obviously you know that the bible teaches people that they are worthless and don’t deserve anything except hell, but that’s where Jesus comes in and he forgives you and allows for you, by his sacrifice, to have the opportunity to enter heaven. Because of the bible and what it taught me, I was in a repetitive existence of feeling like complete garbage. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be as good of a christian as all my friends from church were. I didn’t understand why god would tell me to be and act a certain way, and then wire people [especially me] with desires and a natural lust [I use that in a non sexual manner] for anything opposite of what he teaches. I was told by my mother that it was morally right to read the bible, however I’ve never had a good attention span, and so reading books is really not my thing, unless I am really interested in it. The bible…I was hardly interested in reading it. Yes, I loved learning about god, I was active in a small bible study with all my friends from church, but I never read the bible. There were times when I tried, and times when I was depressed or having a difficult time in life that I searched it for answers. However in my bible study, time and time again I felt ashamed showing up because the leaders of our bible group [our dad’s, though, not mine] would ask us how well we did at staying in the word of god that week. I would usually lie about how much I read because my friends always talked about how they did 3 hour sessions of just reading the bible and taking notes, every day that week. I had at maximum, read the bible for an our over the span of the entire week, or less. I felt like I would be looked down upon and discriminated against if I told them, because we were always strongly encouraged to read the bible.
This is getting a tad longer than I expected so I’ll try to wrap this story up. As I was saying, the bible study stuff, among other things, made me feel horrible all the time. I felt like I wanted to be a good christian, and I wanted to do what god wanted me to do, and I wanted to please him in every way that I could…but when I tried to apply that to my life, it was incredibly difficult to be able to live that way. Time and time again I found myself [from a biblical perspective] making the wrong decisions, and then I’d reprimand myself mentally and I felt like I was constantly disappointing god. Just like Paul said, I do what I don’t want to do, and I don’t do what I desire to do. It even got so bad that there were many times I considered, and got close to killing myself because I was so deep in my depression that I didn’t want to live anymore because I couldn’t live the life that got wanted me to live. I couldn’t do anything right and I didn’t feel worth anything. I felt like I was too fucked up to be a good christian.
This is the part where I would tell you how I stopped believing in god, but I have an entire seperate note containing the abridged version on that, so for that information, read this note of mine. - http://gingyninjy.tumblr.com/post/6824013966/the-end-of-my-faith-in-god
So, when you say that christ is the only way someone can be fully happy, and it’s the only thing that can keep someone happy their entire life, I must respectfully disagree with you. I’m not denying that what you said may be true for you, but it’s definately different for me. After I became an atheist, my life got brighter, and I became a more positive person. Not only that, but through my entire depressive state I went through when I was dealing with christianity, the girl I’m with now, who I’ve been with for 2 years, she kept me sane that entire time. The only reason I didn’t kill myself, was her. She gave me a purpose to live, that purpose being to love her and to make her happy. After I discovered I didn’t believe in god…I can’t think of a better metaphor other than I felt like I had been released from a cage. I felt like all my old worries about everything I used to have, vanished. I’m not saying I don’t have any more worries and that I live a perfect existence, but I am saying that I have been more happy in these past 2 years of being an atheist than I had ever been at any moment being a christian. I don’t feel empty in any way, I don’t feel like my girlfriend doesn’t fill the “void” in my life that you refer to. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I know I don’t need god to make me happy.
Now I don’t want you to think I’m telling you this because I’m trying to tell you that [specifically] you don’t need god to be happy, I’m just saying that I don’t. You talked a lot about how your personal experiences are a huge driving force behind why you believe, well, for me, they were for why I don’t believe. Don’t get me wrong though, when I say I’m an atheist, a common misconception is that atheists say “God does not exist.”, I don’t say that. I’m saying I don’t believe in god. It’s possible that Jesus and all the bible stuff could be true and god exists, I just don’t believe in it. The evidence presented is not sufficient for me.
Where you say that you doubt your faith all the time, in my opinion, I honestly think that whatever a person may believe, doubt of it is extremely healthy for you. You doubting your faith is a wonderful thing for you to do. Doubt will make you search for answers, and will yield for you, a better understanding of what you believe for yourself and give you a deeper connection with it.
I’m going to address your outline in your post in the same way as it was presented to me, meaning, 1. my response 2. my response 3. my response. Anyway, before I get on with that, I want you to know something I should have stated at the beginning of this discussion. You may know this but I just want to clarify. I’m not trying to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not having this discussion in any sort of a hostile manner, I see this as two people with separate beliefs simply talking about their different perspectives on things, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m telling you how things are. I’m merely just telling you my side and listening to yours, I have no intention of expecting you to become and atheist, at all.
1. I can’t exactly touch too much on this one because this is outside my area of expertise. I don’t much about what the biblical and the scientific community say about the supposed historical evidence for christianity, so I’m not going to attempt to talk about this as if I do. Though I must disagree with your last comment that god is consistent. I know it’s typical of an atheist to say, but I don’t see god being consistent in the bible.
2. Well I’m curious as to what you mean by creation. You didn’t allude to anything in this post about how you think god created the world. I’m assuming you mean god just speaking everything into existence. However I have to ask you how much you know about evolution. Don’t get me wrong though, I really think you can believe in god and still believe in evolution, it’s not completely improbable that if god exists, that he used evolution to bring about life on earth. However I do think that us ranting back and forth to eachother about creationism vs evolution is a rehashed and over used argument to have and I think our time could be better spent discussing other things. :P
3. Yeah, exactly like I said before in this post, you spoke a lot of personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I’m not against anything that happens that bolsters your faith. If you see things or things happen to you that help you gain a deeper understanding of what you believe, then I’m all for it. When you say that you’re not going to stop sharing christ’s love with people, I have nothing against that, as long as you don’t tell anyone that they are wrong. Even if you think you’re right and christianity is the only way the live, [I’m not saying you don’t already] just have the respect to not force your belief on other people. Asking about other peoples’ beliefs and discussion them is perfectly fine, but attempting to convert someone is where I have a problem with believers. Not everyone wants to listen to it, so I think that believers should give people that respect and space, since they are given it themselves. Again, I’m not saying you force your belief on anyone, I’m speaking in general about religious people.
You say that life is meaningless, but I think otherwise. It may start out as meaningless, but as I’ve said before, I think each person creates their own meaning and reason for living.
Okay, well here’s where things seem to get… gritty. Because when I say that Christ is the only thing that can satisfy, I mean it! Not only have I personally experienced satisfaction in Christ time and time again, but I’ve seen so many broken lives being fulfilled by Christ. Even more than that, God Himself promises that although we will try to fill our voids with toy after toy, girl after boy, that wasn’t meant to be eternity’s life story. (to borrow words from Jimmy Needham’s “Benediction.” Check it out!)
People are just that… people. We have so many emotions and feelings and longings and human functions. We can feel satisfied by a lot of things, but I stand on the claim that nothing in this world can bring true satisfaction in the long run. And when I say the long run, I also include Forever. Because dying and spending eternity with Jesus will Truly be satisfying.
The truth is, I doubt my faith all the time. Of course I’ve thought about other religions, and thought, “What if I’m wrong? What if this is all just a theory that some dude invented and all these Christians are running around believing it, staking their lives on it like they’re the only ones who know what’s up?” But you know what? Those doubts don’t stick around for long. In fact, the more I question my faith, the more I’m convinced. And believe me, this isn’t some ignorant brain-washed convincing… I’m wholeheartedly convinced.
Let’s see… I’m not keen on writing an entire sermon, but of course I’ll give you an outline. :)
1. I believe the Bible is the true and living word of God. It has been proven historically correct by tons of historians, archeologists and scientists, etc. As I am none of those, I won’t try to sound like I am. What convinced me the most that the Bible truly comes from God was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written over two thousand years ago, these passages of Scripture are exactly identical to the Bibles we have today. With 2 thousand years of rewriting and passing down, I simply cannot believe that no mistake was made, that nothing changed. The fact that it didn’t proves to me that God maintains the inerrancy of His Word. I believe and follow the Word of God because the life it offers, compared to other lifestyles and worldviews, seems the most logical. God doesn’t contradict Himself; He’s consistent.
2. Creation gets me every time. I’m not eloquent at scientifically proving that God created the world, but the complexity and beauty of nature… coming from nothing? I mean, really? It just makes no sense to me!! Think about it, if God is real, and He’s all-powerful and all-knowing… it would bring him so much glory to plan and form an entire world! It’s kind of hard to wrap my mind around, because humans have tried to explain so many things through science alone, but to me I look around the world, and I can’t help but see God.
3. A lot of why I believe in God and claim to be a Christian is based on my personal experience. When I was a little kid, accepting what the adults said around me, I believed things without questioning them. In high school, when I realized I needed to discover belief for myself, I searched but couldn’t find an inconsistency in Christianity. Looking back over my life, I saw so many qualities of God that I had experienced. I saw so many truths of the Bible being fleshed out in the world around me. I realized that the only reasons that kept me from embracing Christianity were selfish. I didn’t want to accept the idea that I was born a sinner and deserved death. I didn’t want to be held to strict standards, to be limited in what I can and can’t do because it’s wrong or right. I didn’t want to have to go to Church on Sundays and listen to pastors drone on about prophets in the Old Testament.
But I couldn’t ignore God. He kept coming back to me, no matter how much I tried to live my own way and find what made me happy. God had a hold on my heart, and He wasn’t gonna let go. I can’t even explain what it’s like to know with certainty that God is real and that Christianity (not “religion”) IS what it’s all about.
I can’t pretend that there aren’t things that I don’t understand, or that I live like a genuine Christian every second of every day, but I also can’t pretend that there’s room for more than one Truth. I’m not going to turn my nose at those who don’t believe, and I’m not going to judge and hate and condemn. I see no reason why we can’t treat each other with respect and live alongside each other in this crazy world. :P
But I’m not going to stop trying to share the love of Christ with those around me, because I’m convinced through and through that God is the Truth, and that without Him, life is meaningless.
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
I don’t think you’ll ever have a problem with this, given our discussion and how I saw you come across, but this is something I like to tell people, especially those who wish to convert me. ”You’ll never convince anyone of anything, unless you first try to understand things from their point of view.” The actual quote is from Hitchens, but I can’t remember what it is word for word.
Well of course I would love it if my words magically became profoundly eloquent and you were suddenly convinced to change everything about your entire belief system… but nope, I don’t think conversion works that way, and I definitely never had some underlying scheme to drastically alter your worldview. :D
Oh, ok, I understand. As long as you weren’t trying to convert me then. :P But yes, enjoyable discussion.
I apologize. My intentions were not to convert you to Christianity; in fact I think that would have been pretty much impossible! The reason why I chose to end the conversation was because I honestly couldn’t think of what else to say! I’ve shared with you my beliefs and opinions about everything you’ve said, and likewise I’ve heard yours… I guess I just got the vibe that our conversation was pretty much at a standstill, since we had agreed to disagree on mostly everything. :P
I can only assume that since you’re ending this conversation on my comment about me not caring about god, even if he did exist, that you’re entire purpose for this discussion was to convert me. I did enjoy our discussion, but had I known your agenda was to try to change my beliefs from the beginning, I never would have had this conversation with you to begin with.
Well, gingyninjy, I guess there’s really nothing else for me to say here. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you would rather go to hell and make your own choices in life than to reconsider Christianity. I understand though, I really do. I hope that in some way this conversation has been meaningful to you, because it’s definitely been quite thought-provoking and enjoyable for me! As you clearly alluded to, there is an unlimited number of questions that remain unanswered when it comes to faith and God. I’m thankful to have had this opportunity to flesh out some things and just talk about belief! I do hope that at some point in your life, you will be able to experience Jesus the way I have, because obviously I could never explain it fully or convince you how utterly desirable it truly is. Until then, or until whenever or forever, I wish you a life full of immense happiness. :)
I’m not a stranger to the good feelings you described getting in your belief in god. I know in my past notes I’ve only highlighted the bad parts, but I certainly know the good feelings people get in this religion. I have to say though, at least for myself, now being an atheist, I can look into my past, and even look at events going on with me right now, and pose the question, “did god do this?”. There is nothing that has ever happened to me or that is currently happening to me, that was incapable of happening without the existence of god. I know that when a person believes in god, when something happens, their natural instinct is to immediately thank god and see it as an act coming from him. I can just see how, whether or not god exists, there is nothing that has happened to me that couldn’t have happened without god being behind it.
When you speak of satisfaction, really the most I can say is, I feel more satisfaction without god. When I was in christianity, yes there was that feeling of satisfaction from god, but there was also a slight empty feeling. Like I was missing out on something, or that there might be something more. Though I knew hardly anything regarding any other belief systems outside my own, especially atheism [though I am not saying atheism is a belief system]. Hypothetically let’s say god is real. Heaven and hell are real and unless I change my ways, I’m going to hell. Under the pretenses that christianity is correct - it doesn’t matter to me. Even if I knew god was real, I wouldn’t follow him. Yes, I’d have to admit I’d believe in him, since I obviously knew he was real, but I would not accept him as my saviour. I would rather go to hell then follow god and go to heaven. I’d rather enjoy my life on earth and do what I wish to do without consequence than to feel imprisoned by biblical laws. I know that may sound extreme to you, but it’s just the way I feel about it.
Honestly, I don’t have a clue on how to stake the genuineness of a person’s faith on anything. This was something we often discussed in my bible study. “How do you know if you’re saved”. A myriad of questions were posed as to what you could do and remain saved. Such as, could you have honestly and truly accept god into your heart, and then proceed to live your life as if he never existed? Would you have truly been a christian? Could you accept god into your heart, and then live life in the most horrific and terrible way possible? Would god forgive you if before you died you asked for forgiveness, or were you never truly saved to begin with? Or, if you asked god to be your saviour, would you obtain a natural desire to follow his will and do good? If that’s the case, was I ever really a christian? Is there a certain amount a christian is able to sin before he sins too much and is deemed to never really have been saved to begin with?
I don’t think I’d necessarily say that I believe in god because it felt like a feeling. To me it was my question, “Do I believe in god?”, posed to myself, that ended it for me. I’m not saying that the realization that to me, god was but a feeling, didn’t have anything to do with it, because it did, but it wasn’t the main reason.
Well, this is all just my speculation on this subject, but, I would say that life does not have a point. There is no point to life. Why does there have to be a point? I know for a lot of people, that prospect is disturbing and unsettling. However, why do humans have to feel so self important that their lives have to have some significance? Do animals get a purpose? Do animals get to go to heaven? What is so different and special about us that we get to go to heaven, whereas animals and bacteria, and suns, and stars, and universes merely cease to exist, post having a meaningless life? To me, humans are no different than animals. I don’t require an inherent reason for life to be happy and to find beauty in everything. If anything, I find life more amazing when there is no reason for any of it. Beauty and kindness can exist for no purpose. Have you ever given a flower to a loved one, or helped a stranger for no other reason other than “just because”?
The difference between God and Jesus is this. God destroyed people for disobeying and not following him. Jesus gave people the choice, without consequence. Obviously later they would go to hell, but I meant with no direct consequence. Jesus, at least in my opinion, would be more apt to accept people with different ideas on life, and he would be more accepting of the “to each his own” philosophy.
Gingyninjy, I like you. Ha! Rather, I like this conversation and I’m glad we’re actually having it rather than me just creepin’ you out by reblogging your post with my life story. LOL :)
First of all, I want to clarify what I said about satisfaction. I do not believe that Christ is the way to be happy in life. In fact, I definitely will tell you that being a Christian does not equal perpetual happiness or some sort of supernatural delight. There are a lot of hardships that come from pursuing a life in Christ. However, I would still say that without a personal relationship with God, this life can never truly satisfy us. I keep throwing around the word “satisfaction,” so let me phrase it a little differently. People are born with a plethora of fleshly desires, or lusts as you truthfully put it. Filling those desires with other people and activities and things is something we do day after day. But the things of this world just do not compare to the things of God. 1 John 2:16 says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” It’s not that all these things aren’t great, positive things that are here for good reasons… but nothing of this world will stand in the end when it really matters.
I’m really sorry to hear that you had such a dreadful encounter with Christianity growing up. I can totally see how that would have pushed you away from God and away from strict principles and vague ideas associated with Christianity. But let me tell you that Christianity is more about what you do than what you don’t do. It’s not all about a set of rules, or church on Sunday, or how much you read the Bible. It’s not about saying no to sex and drugs and dating and all those things Christians can tell you to stay away from. It’s about Jesus Christ and what he did for you. It’s about knowing him and meeting him on a personal level. It’s about accepting the Grace of God revealed in the finished work of Christ.
If you stake the genuineness of your faith on how often you perform Christian practices or how “good” of a person you seem, then you haven’t experienced what it’s like to truly feel freedom. Trust me, I know what it’s like to feel freedom from rules and standards and nit-picky “Christian” things, but that is NOTHING compared to the freedom we have in Christ. John 8:32 says that when you know the Truth, it will set you free. Freedom in Christ means that God doesn’t expect you to be perfect because the chains of sin have been released.
It’s interesting to me that the main reason why you stopped pursuing Christianity was because it seemed like only a feeling. This is something that I have definitely been pondering lately. I’ve noticed that many people who grow up in different types of churches have experienced varying amounts of “feeling” when it comes to faith. Many people come to Christ because of an experience they’ve had where they really felt God’s presence or saw him working in their hearts. Someone once told me, “I met the joy of the Lord before I met the Lord.” When hardship came, and a lot of that joy went away, it was difficult for him to cling onto the person of Christ since a lot of his faith was based on experience. But through many prayers and through reading the Scriptures, he encountered the Lord in a much more substantial way than just his feelings.
Feelings come and go, but God remains the same. I rest in the fact that although I struggle to always feel Christ next to me or see God working around me, the Truth remains the same. For it is by Grace I have been saved. His Grace is like an ocean, and I’m sinking. He never lets go!
One more question I’d like to present… if each person creates their own meaning, what is the point of life? I would love some more insight into this idea, because I’ve encountered a lot of people with a similar frame of mind, but I haven’t been able to fully unravel it yet. I guess this concept brings me to imagine life beginning as a blank slate… each life paints another picture, and each person creates their own destiny in a way. But is there more? Does this slate rest on a single plane? That’s where I’d like to challenge this idea, but first I want to hear more. :)
I’ve really struggled to compose this post, because it’s hard to know how I will really come across in this kind of conversation. I want to love without condemnation, to speak with wisdom and without trepidation. I want to defy “to each his own,” but never to shoot down acceptance and humility. But I walk a fine line. I only hope that I can tread carefully, and my words can be used for good.
Well, I’m going to have to say I disagree with you about Christ being the only way to be fully happy for the rest of your life. I’ll try to explain this as short and sweet as I can, since when I tell this I tend to rant and give more details that I should. :P Since I was born, I was raised in a chrisitan home, I was always involved in religious stuff, I went to church all the time, I was homeschooled, so all my schooling and textbooks were made by christians that incorporated god into their ciriculum, and all my extraciricular activities were always either at the church, or some place that I would always be able to hear about god and stuff. Anyway, for the first 17 years of my life, I followed the teaching about god, because, well obviously because that’s what my parents had taught me. I had never really thought about my beliefs and why they were my beliefs or anything.
Now, I can honestly say, that being a christian, I went through some of the worst time in my life. I’m not saying I’m not going to experience anything worse, or that it was the worst that could ever happen to anyone, but I haven’t lived an awful long time, so I don’t have that much experience in the world to be able to say I’ve been devastated by anything, so at the moment, being a christian stays at the top. Anyway, I constantly felt like a crappy person when I was a christian. Obviously you know that the bible teaches people that they are worthless and don’t deserve anything except hell, but that’s where Jesus comes in and he forgives you and allows for you, by his sacrifice, to have the opportunity to enter heaven. Because of the bible and what it taught me, I was in a repetitive existence of feeling like complete garbage. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be as good of a christian as all my friends from church were. I didn’t understand why god would tell me to be and act a certain way, and then wire people [especially me] with desires and a natural lust [I use that in a non sexual manner] for anything opposite of what he teaches. I was told by my mother that it was morally right to read the bible, however I’ve never had a good attention span, and so reading books is really not my thing, unless I am really interested in it. The bible…I was hardly interested in reading it. Yes, I loved learning about god, I was active in a small bible study with all my friends from church, but I never read the bible. There were times when I tried, and times when I was depressed or having a difficult time in life that I searched it for answers. However in my bible study, time and time again I felt ashamed showing up because the leaders of our bible group [our dad’s, though, not mine] would ask us how well we did at staying in the word of god that week. I would usually lie about how much I read because my friends always talked about how they did 3 hour sessions of just reading the bible and taking notes, every day that week. I had at maximum, read the bible for an our over the span of the entire week, or less. I felt like I would be looked down upon and discriminated against if I told them, because we were always strongly encouraged to read the bible.
This is getting a tad longer than I expected so I’ll try to wrap this story up. As I was saying, the bible study stuff, among other things, made me feel horrible all the time. I felt like I wanted to be a good christian, and I wanted to do what god wanted me to do, and I wanted to please him in every way that I could…but when I tried to apply that to my life, it was incredibly difficult to be able to live that way. Time and time again I found myself [from a biblical perspective] making the wrong decisions, and then I’d reprimand myself mentally and I felt like I was constantly disappointing god. Just like Paul said, I do what I don’t want to do, and I don’t do what I desire to do. It even got so bad that there were many times I considered, and got close to killing myself because I was so deep in my depression that I didn’t want to live anymore because I couldn’t live the life that got wanted me to live. I couldn’t do anything right and I didn’t feel worth anything. I felt like I was too fucked up to be a good christian.
This is the part where I would tell you how I stopped believing in god, but I have an entire seperate note containing the abridged version on that, so for that information, read this note of mine. - http://gingyninjy.tumblr.com/post/6824013966/the-end-of-my-faith-in-god
So, when you say that christ is the only way someone can be fully happy, and it’s the only thing that can keep someone happy their entire life, I must respectfully disagree with you. I’m not denying that what you said may be true for you, but it’s definately different for me. After I became an atheist, my life got brighter, and I became a more positive person. Not only that, but through my entire depressive state I went through when I was dealing with christianity, the girl I’m with now, who I’ve been with for 2 years, she kept me sane that entire time. The only reason I didn’t kill myself, was her. She gave me a purpose to live, that purpose being to love her and to make her happy. After I discovered I didn’t believe in god…I can’t think of a better metaphor other than I felt like I had been released from a cage. I felt like all my old worries about everything I used to have, vanished. I’m not saying I don’t have any more worries and that I live a perfect existence, but I am saying that I have been more happy in these past 2 years of being an atheist than I had ever been at any moment being a christian. I don’t feel empty in any way, I don’t feel like my girlfriend doesn’t fill the “void” in my life that you refer to. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I know I don’t need god to make me happy.
Now I don’t want you to think I’m telling you this because I’m trying to tell you that [specifically] you don’t need god to be happy, I’m just saying that I don’t. You talked a lot about how your personal experiences are a huge driving force behind why you believe, well, for me, they were for why I don’t believe. Don’t get me wrong though, when I say I’m an atheist, a common misconception is that atheists say “God does not exist.”, I don’t say that. I’m saying I don’t believe in god. It’s possible that Jesus and all the bible stuff could be true and god exists, I just don’t believe in it. The evidence presented is not sufficient for me.
Where you say that you doubt your faith all the time, in my opinion, I honestly think that whatever a person may believe, doubt of it is extremely healthy for you. You doubting your faith is a wonderful thing for you to do. Doubt will make you search for answers, and will yield for you, a better understanding of what you believe for yourself and give you a deeper connection with it.
I’m going to address your outline in your post in the same way as it was presented to me, meaning, 1. my response 2. my response 3. my response. Anyway, before I get on with that, I want you to know something I should have stated at the beginning of this discussion. You may know this but I just want to clarify. I’m not trying to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not having this discussion in any sort of a hostile manner, I see this as two people with separate beliefs simply talking about their different perspectives on things, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m telling you how things are. I’m merely just telling you my side and listening to yours, I have no intention of expecting you to become and atheist, at all.
1. I can’t exactly touch too much on this one because this is outside my area of expertise. I don’t much about what the biblical and the scientific community say about the supposed historical evidence for christianity, so I’m not going to attempt to talk about this as if I do. Though I must disagree with your last comment that god is consistent. I know it’s typical of an atheist to say, but I don’t see god being consistent in the bible.
2. Well I’m curious as to what you mean by creation. You didn’t allude to anything in this post about how you think god created the world. I’m assuming you mean god just speaking everything into existence. However I have to ask you how much you know about evolution. Don’t get me wrong though, I really think you can believe in god and still believe in evolution, it’s not completely improbable that if god exists, that he used evolution to bring about life on earth. However I do think that us ranting back and forth to eachother about creationism vs evolution is a rehashed and over used argument to have and I think our time could be better spent discussing other things. :P
3. Yeah, exactly like I said before in this post, you spoke a lot of personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I’m not against anything that happens that bolsters your faith. If you see things or things happen to you that help you gain a deeper understanding of what you believe, then I’m all for it. When you say that you’re not going to stop sharing christ’s love with people, I have nothing against that, as long as you don’t tell anyone that they are wrong. Even if you think you’re right and christianity is the only way the live, [I’m not saying you don’t already] just have the respect to not force your belief on other people. Asking about other peoples’ beliefs and discussion them is perfectly fine, but attempting to convert someone is where I have a problem with believers. Not everyone wants to listen to it, so I think that believers should give people that respect and space, since they are given it themselves. Again, I’m not saying you force your belief on anyone, I’m speaking in general about religious people.
You say that life is meaningless, but I think otherwise. It may start out as meaningless, but as I’ve said before, I think each person creates their own meaning and reason for living.
Okay, well here’s where things seem to get… gritty. Because when I say that Christ is the only thing that can satisfy, I mean it! Not only have I personally experienced satisfaction in Christ time and time again, but I’ve seen so many broken lives being fulfilled by Christ. Even more than that, God Himself promises that although we will try to fill our voids with toy after toy, girl after boy, that wasn’t meant to be eternity’s life story. (to borrow words from Jimmy Needham’s “Benediction.” Check it out!)
People are just that… people. We have so many emotions and feelings and longings and human functions. We can feel satisfied by a lot of things, but I stand on the claim that nothing in this world can bring true satisfaction in the long run. And when I say the long run, I also include Forever. Because dying and spending eternity with Jesus will Truly be satisfying.
The truth is, I doubt my faith all the time. Of course I’ve thought about other religions, and thought, “What if I’m wrong? What if this is all just a theory that some dude invented and all these Christians are running around believing it, staking their lives on it like they’re the only ones who know what’s up?” But you know what? Those doubts don’t stick around for long. In fact, the more I question my faith, the more I’m convinced. And believe me, this isn’t some ignorant brain-washed convincing… I’m wholeheartedly convinced.
Let’s see… I’m not keen on writing an entire sermon, but of course I’ll give you an outline. :)
1. I believe the Bible is the true and living word of God. It has been proven historically correct by tons of historians, archeologists and scientists, etc. As I am none of those, I won’t try to sound like I am. What convinced me the most that the Bible truly comes from God was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written over two thousand years ago, these passages of Scripture are exactly identical to the Bibles we have today. With 2 thousand years of rewriting and passing down, I simply cannot believe that no mistake was made, that nothing changed. The fact that it didn’t proves to me that God maintains the inerrancy of His Word. I believe and follow the Word of God because the life it offers, compared to other lifestyles and worldviews, seems the most logical. God doesn’t contradict Himself; He’s consistent.
2. Creation gets me every time. I’m not eloquent at scientifically proving that God created the world, but the complexity and beauty of nature… coming from nothing? I mean, really? It just makes no sense to me!! Think about it, if God is real, and He’s all-powerful and all-knowing… it would bring him so much glory to plan and form an entire world! It’s kind of hard to wrap my mind around, because humans have tried to explain so many things through science alone, but to me I look around the world, and I can’t help but see God.
3. A lot of why I believe in God and claim to be a Christian is based on my personal experience. When I was a little kid, accepting what the adults said around me, I believed things without questioning them. In high school, when I realized I needed to discover belief for myself, I searched but couldn’t find an inconsistency in Christianity. Looking back over my life, I saw so many qualities of God that I had experienced. I saw so many truths of the Bible being fleshed out in the world around me. I realized that the only reasons that kept me from embracing Christianity were selfish. I didn’t want to accept the idea that I was born a sinner and deserved death. I didn’t want to be held to strict standards, to be limited in what I can and can’t do because it’s wrong or right. I didn’t want to have to go to Church on Sundays and listen to pastors drone on about prophets in the Old Testament.
But I couldn’t ignore God. He kept coming back to me, no matter how much I tried to live my own way and find what made me happy. God had a hold on my heart, and He wasn’t gonna let go. I can’t even explain what it’s like to know with certainty that God is real and that Christianity (not “religion”) IS what it’s all about.
I can’t pretend that there aren’t things that I don’t understand, or that I live like a genuine Christian every second of every day, but I also can’t pretend that there’s room for more than one Truth. I’m not going to turn my nose at those who don’t believe, and I’m not going to judge and hate and condemn. I see no reason why we can’t treat each other with respect and live alongside each other in this crazy world. :P
But I’m not going to stop trying to share the love of Christ with those around me, because I’m convinced through and through that God is the Truth, and that without Him, life is meaningless.
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
Oh, ok, I understand. As long as you weren’t trying to convert me then. :P But yes, enjoyable discussion.
I apologize. My intentions were not to convert you to Christianity; in fact I think that would have been pretty much impossible! The reason why I chose to end the conversation was because I honestly couldn’t think of what else to say! I’ve shared with you my beliefs and opinions about everything you’ve said, and likewise I’ve heard yours… I guess I just got the vibe that our conversation was pretty much at a standstill, since we had agreed to disagree on mostly everything. :P
I can only assume that since you’re ending this conversation on my comment about me not caring about god, even if he did exist, that you’re entire purpose for this discussion was to convert me. I did enjoy our discussion, but had I known your agenda was to try to change my beliefs from the beginning, I never would have had this conversation with you to begin with.
Well, gingyninjy, I guess there’s really nothing else for me to say here. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you would rather go to hell and make your own choices in life than to reconsider Christianity. I understand though, I really do. I hope that in some way this conversation has been meaningful to you, because it’s definitely been quite thought-provoking and enjoyable for me! As you clearly alluded to, there is an unlimited number of questions that remain unanswered when it comes to faith and God. I’m thankful to have had this opportunity to flesh out some things and just talk about belief! I do hope that at some point in your life, you will be able to experience Jesus the way I have, because obviously I could never explain it fully or convince you how utterly desirable it truly is. Until then, or until whenever or forever, I wish you a life full of immense happiness. :)
I’m not a stranger to the good feelings you described getting in your belief in god. I know in my past notes I’ve only highlighted the bad parts, but I certainly know the good feelings people get in this religion. I have to say though, at least for myself, now being an atheist, I can look into my past, and even look at events going on with me right now, and pose the question, “did god do this?”. There is nothing that has ever happened to me or that is currently happening to me, that was incapable of happening without the existence of god. I know that when a person believes in god, when something happens, their natural instinct is to immediately thank god and see it as an act coming from him. I can just see how, whether or not god exists, there is nothing that has happened to me that couldn’t have happened without god being behind it.
When you speak of satisfaction, really the most I can say is, I feel more satisfaction without god. When I was in christianity, yes there was that feeling of satisfaction from god, but there was also a slight empty feeling. Like I was missing out on something, or that there might be something more. Though I knew hardly anything regarding any other belief systems outside my own, especially atheism [though I am not saying atheism is a belief system]. Hypothetically let’s say god is real. Heaven and hell are real and unless I change my ways, I’m going to hell. Under the pretenses that christianity is correct - it doesn’t matter to me. Even if I knew god was real, I wouldn’t follow him. Yes, I’d have to admit I’d believe in him, since I obviously knew he was real, but I would not accept him as my saviour. I would rather go to hell then follow god and go to heaven. I’d rather enjoy my life on earth and do what I wish to do without consequence than to feel imprisoned by biblical laws. I know that may sound extreme to you, but it’s just the way I feel about it.
Honestly, I don’t have a clue on how to stake the genuineness of a person’s faith on anything. This was something we often discussed in my bible study. “How do you know if you’re saved”. A myriad of questions were posed as to what you could do and remain saved. Such as, could you have honestly and truly accept god into your heart, and then proceed to live your life as if he never existed? Would you have truly been a christian? Could you accept god into your heart, and then live life in the most horrific and terrible way possible? Would god forgive you if before you died you asked for forgiveness, or were you never truly saved to begin with? Or, if you asked god to be your saviour, would you obtain a natural desire to follow his will and do good? If that’s the case, was I ever really a christian? Is there a certain amount a christian is able to sin before he sins too much and is deemed to never really have been saved to begin with?
I don’t think I’d necessarily say that I believe in god because it felt like a feeling. To me it was my question, “Do I believe in god?”, posed to myself, that ended it for me. I’m not saying that the realization that to me, god was but a feeling, didn’t have anything to do with it, because it did, but it wasn’t the main reason.
Well, this is all just my speculation on this subject, but, I would say that life does not have a point. There is no point to life. Why does there have to be a point? I know for a lot of people, that prospect is disturbing and unsettling. However, why do humans have to feel so self important that their lives have to have some significance? Do animals get a purpose? Do animals get to go to heaven? What is so different and special about us that we get to go to heaven, whereas animals and bacteria, and suns, and stars, and universes merely cease to exist, post having a meaningless life? To me, humans are no different than animals. I don’t require an inherent reason for life to be happy and to find beauty in everything. If anything, I find life more amazing when there is no reason for any of it. Beauty and kindness can exist for no purpose. Have you ever given a flower to a loved one, or helped a stranger for no other reason other than “just because”?
The difference between God and Jesus is this. God destroyed people for disobeying and not following him. Jesus gave people the choice, without consequence. Obviously later they would go to hell, but I meant with no direct consequence. Jesus, at least in my opinion, would be more apt to accept people with different ideas on life, and he would be more accepting of the “to each his own” philosophy.
Gingyninjy, I like you. Ha! Rather, I like this conversation and I’m glad we’re actually having it rather than me just creepin’ you out by reblogging your post with my life story. LOL :)
First of all, I want to clarify what I said about satisfaction. I do not believe that Christ is the way to be happy in life. In fact, I definitely will tell you that being a Christian does not equal perpetual happiness or some sort of supernatural delight. There are a lot of hardships that come from pursuing a life in Christ. However, I would still say that without a personal relationship with God, this life can never truly satisfy us. I keep throwing around the word “satisfaction,” so let me phrase it a little differently. People are born with a plethora of fleshly desires, or lusts as you truthfully put it. Filling those desires with other people and activities and things is something we do day after day. But the things of this world just do not compare to the things of God. 1 John 2:16 says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” It’s not that all these things aren’t great, positive things that are here for good reasons… but nothing of this world will stand in the end when it really matters.
I’m really sorry to hear that you had such a dreadful encounter with Christianity growing up. I can totally see how that would have pushed you away from God and away from strict principles and vague ideas associated with Christianity. But let me tell you that Christianity is more about what you do than what you don’t do. It’s not all about a set of rules, or church on Sunday, or how much you read the Bible. It’s not about saying no to sex and drugs and dating and all those things Christians can tell you to stay away from. It’s about Jesus Christ and what he did for you. It’s about knowing him and meeting him on a personal level. It’s about accepting the Grace of God revealed in the finished work of Christ.
If you stake the genuineness of your faith on how often you perform Christian practices or how “good” of a person you seem, then you haven’t experienced what it’s like to truly feel freedom. Trust me, I know what it’s like to feel freedom from rules and standards and nit-picky “Christian” things, but that is NOTHING compared to the freedom we have in Christ. John 8:32 says that when you know the Truth, it will set you free. Freedom in Christ means that God doesn’t expect you to be perfect because the chains of sin have been released.
It’s interesting to me that the main reason why you stopped pursuing Christianity was because it seemed like only a feeling. This is something that I have definitely been pondering lately. I’ve noticed that many people who grow up in different types of churches have experienced varying amounts of “feeling” when it comes to faith. Many people come to Christ because of an experience they’ve had where they really felt God’s presence or saw him working in their hearts. Someone once told me, “I met the joy of the Lord before I met the Lord.” When hardship came, and a lot of that joy went away, it was difficult for him to cling onto the person of Christ since a lot of his faith was based on experience. But through many prayers and through reading the Scriptures, he encountered the Lord in a much more substantial way than just his feelings.
Feelings come and go, but God remains the same. I rest in the fact that although I struggle to always feel Christ next to me or see God working around me, the Truth remains the same. For it is by Grace I have been saved. His Grace is like an ocean, and I’m sinking. He never lets go!
One more question I’d like to present… if each person creates their own meaning, what is the point of life? I would love some more insight into this idea, because I’ve encountered a lot of people with a similar frame of mind, but I haven’t been able to fully unravel it yet. I guess this concept brings me to imagine life beginning as a blank slate… each life paints another picture, and each person creates their own destiny in a way. But is there more? Does this slate rest on a single plane? That’s where I’d like to challenge this idea, but first I want to hear more. :)
I’ve really struggled to compose this post, because it’s hard to know how I will really come across in this kind of conversation. I want to love without condemnation, to speak with wisdom and without trepidation. I want to defy “to each his own,” but never to shoot down acceptance and humility. But I walk a fine line. I only hope that I can tread carefully, and my words can be used for good.
Well, I’m going to have to say I disagree with you about Christ being the only way to be fully happy for the rest of your life. I’ll try to explain this as short and sweet as I can, since when I tell this I tend to rant and give more details that I should. :P Since I was born, I was raised in a chrisitan home, I was always involved in religious stuff, I went to church all the time, I was homeschooled, so all my schooling and textbooks were made by christians that incorporated god into their ciriculum, and all my extraciricular activities were always either at the church, or some place that I would always be able to hear about god and stuff. Anyway, for the first 17 years of my life, I followed the teaching about god, because, well obviously because that’s what my parents had taught me. I had never really thought about my beliefs and why they were my beliefs or anything.
Now, I can honestly say, that being a christian, I went through some of the worst time in my life. I’m not saying I’m not going to experience anything worse, or that it was the worst that could ever happen to anyone, but I haven’t lived an awful long time, so I don’t have that much experience in the world to be able to say I’ve been devastated by anything, so at the moment, being a christian stays at the top. Anyway, I constantly felt like a crappy person when I was a christian. Obviously you know that the bible teaches people that they are worthless and don’t deserve anything except hell, but that’s where Jesus comes in and he forgives you and allows for you, by his sacrifice, to have the opportunity to enter heaven. Because of the bible and what it taught me, I was in a repetitive existence of feeling like complete garbage. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be as good of a christian as all my friends from church were. I didn’t understand why god would tell me to be and act a certain way, and then wire people [especially me] with desires and a natural lust [I use that in a non sexual manner] for anything opposite of what he teaches. I was told by my mother that it was morally right to read the bible, however I’ve never had a good attention span, and so reading books is really not my thing, unless I am really interested in it. The bible…I was hardly interested in reading it. Yes, I loved learning about god, I was active in a small bible study with all my friends from church, but I never read the bible. There were times when I tried, and times when I was depressed or having a difficult time in life that I searched it for answers. However in my bible study, time and time again I felt ashamed showing up because the leaders of our bible group [our dad’s, though, not mine] would ask us how well we did at staying in the word of god that week. I would usually lie about how much I read because my friends always talked about how they did 3 hour sessions of just reading the bible and taking notes, every day that week. I had at maximum, read the bible for an our over the span of the entire week, or less. I felt like I would be looked down upon and discriminated against if I told them, because we were always strongly encouraged to read the bible.
This is getting a tad longer than I expected so I’ll try to wrap this story up. As I was saying, the bible study stuff, among other things, made me feel horrible all the time. I felt like I wanted to be a good christian, and I wanted to do what god wanted me to do, and I wanted to please him in every way that I could…but when I tried to apply that to my life, it was incredibly difficult to be able to live that way. Time and time again I found myself [from a biblical perspective] making the wrong decisions, and then I’d reprimand myself mentally and I felt like I was constantly disappointing god. Just like Paul said, I do what I don’t want to do, and I don’t do what I desire to do. It even got so bad that there were many times I considered, and got close to killing myself because I was so deep in my depression that I didn’t want to live anymore because I couldn’t live the life that got wanted me to live. I couldn’t do anything right and I didn’t feel worth anything. I felt like I was too fucked up to be a good christian.
This is the part where I would tell you how I stopped believing in god, but I have an entire seperate note containing the abridged version on that, so for that information, read this note of mine. - http://gingyninjy.tumblr.com/post/6824013966/the-end-of-my-faith-in-god
So, when you say that christ is the only way someone can be fully happy, and it’s the only thing that can keep someone happy their entire life, I must respectfully disagree with you. I’m not denying that what you said may be true for you, but it’s definately different for me. After I became an atheist, my life got brighter, and I became a more positive person. Not only that, but through my entire depressive state I went through when I was dealing with christianity, the girl I’m with now, who I’ve been with for 2 years, she kept me sane that entire time. The only reason I didn’t kill myself, was her. She gave me a purpose to live, that purpose being to love her and to make her happy. After I discovered I didn’t believe in god…I can’t think of a better metaphor other than I felt like I had been released from a cage. I felt like all my old worries about everything I used to have, vanished. I’m not saying I don’t have any more worries and that I live a perfect existence, but I am saying that I have been more happy in these past 2 years of being an atheist than I had ever been at any moment being a christian. I don’t feel empty in any way, I don’t feel like my girlfriend doesn’t fill the “void” in my life that you refer to. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I know I don’t need god to make me happy.
Now I don’t want you to think I’m telling you this because I’m trying to tell you that [specifically] you don’t need god to be happy, I’m just saying that I don’t. You talked a lot about how your personal experiences are a huge driving force behind why you believe, well, for me, they were for why I don’t believe. Don’t get me wrong though, when I say I’m an atheist, a common misconception is that atheists say “God does not exist.”, I don’t say that. I’m saying I don’t believe in god. It’s possible that Jesus and all the bible stuff could be true and god exists, I just don’t believe in it. The evidence presented is not sufficient for me.
Where you say that you doubt your faith all the time, in my opinion, I honestly think that whatever a person may believe, doubt of it is extremely healthy for you. You doubting your faith is a wonderful thing for you to do. Doubt will make you search for answers, and will yield for you, a better understanding of what you believe for yourself and give you a deeper connection with it.
I’m going to address your outline in your post in the same way as it was presented to me, meaning, 1. my response 2. my response 3. my response. Anyway, before I get on with that, I want you to know something I should have stated at the beginning of this discussion. You may know this but I just want to clarify. I’m not trying to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not having this discussion in any sort of a hostile manner, I see this as two people with separate beliefs simply talking about their different perspectives on things, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m telling you how things are. I’m merely just telling you my side and listening to yours, I have no intention of expecting you to become and atheist, at all.
1. I can’t exactly touch too much on this one because this is outside my area of expertise. I don’t much about what the biblical and the scientific community say about the supposed historical evidence for christianity, so I’m not going to attempt to talk about this as if I do. Though I must disagree with your last comment that god is consistent. I know it’s typical of an atheist to say, but I don’t see god being consistent in the bible.
2. Well I’m curious as to what you mean by creation. You didn’t allude to anything in this post about how you think god created the world. I’m assuming you mean god just speaking everything into existence. However I have to ask you how much you know about evolution. Don’t get me wrong though, I really think you can believe in god and still believe in evolution, it’s not completely improbable that if god exists, that he used evolution to bring about life on earth. However I do think that us ranting back and forth to eachother about creationism vs evolution is a rehashed and over used argument to have and I think our time could be better spent discussing other things. :P
3. Yeah, exactly like I said before in this post, you spoke a lot of personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I’m not against anything that happens that bolsters your faith. If you see things or things happen to you that help you gain a deeper understanding of what you believe, then I’m all for it. When you say that you’re not going to stop sharing christ’s love with people, I have nothing against that, as long as you don’t tell anyone that they are wrong. Even if you think you’re right and christianity is the only way the live, [I’m not saying you don’t already] just have the respect to not force your belief on other people. Asking about other peoples’ beliefs and discussion them is perfectly fine, but attempting to convert someone is where I have a problem with believers. Not everyone wants to listen to it, so I think that believers should give people that respect and space, since they are given it themselves. Again, I’m not saying you force your belief on anyone, I’m speaking in general about religious people.
You say that life is meaningless, but I think otherwise. It may start out as meaningless, but as I’ve said before, I think each person creates their own meaning and reason for living.
Okay, well here’s where things seem to get… gritty. Because when I say that Christ is the only thing that can satisfy, I mean it! Not only have I personally experienced satisfaction in Christ time and time again, but I’ve seen so many broken lives being fulfilled by Christ. Even more than that, God Himself promises that although we will try to fill our voids with toy after toy, girl after boy, that wasn’t meant to be eternity’s life story. (to borrow words from Jimmy Needham’s “Benediction.” Check it out!)
People are just that… people. We have so many emotions and feelings and longings and human functions. We can feel satisfied by a lot of things, but I stand on the claim that nothing in this world can bring true satisfaction in the long run. And when I say the long run, I also include Forever. Because dying and spending eternity with Jesus will Truly be satisfying.
The truth is, I doubt my faith all the time. Of course I’ve thought about other religions, and thought, “What if I’m wrong? What if this is all just a theory that some dude invented and all these Christians are running around believing it, staking their lives on it like they’re the only ones who know what’s up?” But you know what? Those doubts don’t stick around for long. In fact, the more I question my faith, the more I’m convinced. And believe me, this isn’t some ignorant brain-washed convincing… I’m wholeheartedly convinced.
Let’s see… I’m not keen on writing an entire sermon, but of course I’ll give you an outline. :)
1. I believe the Bible is the true and living word of God. It has been proven historically correct by tons of historians, archeologists and scientists, etc. As I am none of those, I won’t try to sound like I am. What convinced me the most that the Bible truly comes from God was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written over two thousand years ago, these passages of Scripture are exactly identical to the Bibles we have today. With 2 thousand years of rewriting and passing down, I simply cannot believe that no mistake was made, that nothing changed. The fact that it didn’t proves to me that God maintains the inerrancy of His Word. I believe and follow the Word of God because the life it offers, compared to other lifestyles and worldviews, seems the most logical. God doesn’t contradict Himself; He’s consistent.
2. Creation gets me every time. I’m not eloquent at scientifically proving that God created the world, but the complexity and beauty of nature… coming from nothing? I mean, really? It just makes no sense to me!! Think about it, if God is real, and He’s all-powerful and all-knowing… it would bring him so much glory to plan and form an entire world! It’s kind of hard to wrap my mind around, because humans have tried to explain so many things through science alone, but to me I look around the world, and I can’t help but see God.
3. A lot of why I believe in God and claim to be a Christian is based on my personal experience. When I was a little kid, accepting what the adults said around me, I believed things without questioning them. In high school, when I realized I needed to discover belief for myself, I searched but couldn’t find an inconsistency in Christianity. Looking back over my life, I saw so many qualities of God that I had experienced. I saw so many truths of the Bible being fleshed out in the world around me. I realized that the only reasons that kept me from embracing Christianity were selfish. I didn’t want to accept the idea that I was born a sinner and deserved death. I didn’t want to be held to strict standards, to be limited in what I can and can’t do because it’s wrong or right. I didn’t want to have to go to Church on Sundays and listen to pastors drone on about prophets in the Old Testament.
But I couldn’t ignore God. He kept coming back to me, no matter how much I tried to live my own way and find what made me happy. God had a hold on my heart, and He wasn’t gonna let go. I can’t even explain what it’s like to know with certainty that God is real and that Christianity (not “religion”) IS what it’s all about.
I can’t pretend that there aren’t things that I don’t understand, or that I live like a genuine Christian every second of every day, but I also can’t pretend that there’s room for more than one Truth. I’m not going to turn my nose at those who don’t believe, and I’m not going to judge and hate and condemn. I see no reason why we can’t treat each other with respect and live alongside each other in this crazy world. :P
But I’m not going to stop trying to share the love of Christ with those around me, because I’m convinced through and through that God is the Truth, and that without Him, life is meaningless.
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
I can only assume that since you’re ending this conversation on my comment about me not caring about god, even if he did exist, that you’re entire purpose for this discussion was to convert me. I did enjoy our discussion, but had I known your agenda was to try to change my beliefs from the beginning, I never would have had this conversation with you to begin with.
Well, gingyninjy, I guess there’s really nothing else for me to say here. Honestly, it breaks my heart that you would rather go to hell and make your own choices in life than to reconsider Christianity. I understand though, I really do. I hope that in some way this conversation has been meaningful to you, because it’s definitely been quite thought-provoking and enjoyable for me! As you clearly alluded to, there is an unlimited number of questions that remain unanswered when it comes to faith and God. I’m thankful to have had this opportunity to flesh out some things and just talk about belief! I do hope that at some point in your life, you will be able to experience Jesus the way I have, because obviously I could never explain it fully or convince you how utterly desirable it truly is. Until then, or until whenever or forever, I wish you a life full of immense happiness. :)
I’m not a stranger to the good feelings you described getting in your belief in god. I know in my past notes I’ve only highlighted the bad parts, but I certainly know the good feelings people get in this religion. I have to say though, at least for myself, now being an atheist, I can look into my past, and even look at events going on with me right now, and pose the question, “did god do this?”. There is nothing that has ever happened to me or that is currently happening to me, that was incapable of happening without the existence of god. I know that when a person believes in god, when something happens, their natural instinct is to immediately thank god and see it as an act coming from him. I can just see how, whether or not god exists, there is nothing that has happened to me that couldn’t have happened without god being behind it.
When you speak of satisfaction, really the most I can say is, I feel more satisfaction without god. When I was in christianity, yes there was that feeling of satisfaction from god, but there was also a slight empty feeling. Like I was missing out on something, or that there might be something more. Though I knew hardly anything regarding any other belief systems outside my own, especially atheism [though I am not saying atheism is a belief system]. Hypothetically let’s say god is real. Heaven and hell are real and unless I change my ways, I’m going to hell. Under the pretenses that christianity is correct - it doesn’t matter to me. Even if I knew god was real, I wouldn’t follow him. Yes, I’d have to admit I’d believe in him, since I obviously knew he was real, but I would not accept him as my saviour. I would rather go to hell then follow god and go to heaven. I’d rather enjoy my life on earth and do what I wish to do without consequence than to feel imprisoned by biblical laws. I know that may sound extreme to you, but it’s just the way I feel about it.
Honestly, I don’t have a clue on how to stake the genuineness of a person’s faith on anything. This was something we often discussed in my bible study. “How do you know if you’re saved”. A myriad of questions were posed as to what you could do and remain saved. Such as, could you have honestly and truly accept god into your heart, and then proceed to live your life as if he never existed? Would you have truly been a christian? Could you accept god into your heart, and then live life in the most horrific and terrible way possible? Would god forgive you if before you died you asked for forgiveness, or were you never truly saved to begin with? Or, if you asked god to be your saviour, would you obtain a natural desire to follow his will and do good? If that’s the case, was I ever really a christian? Is there a certain amount a christian is able to sin before he sins too much and is deemed to never really have been saved to begin with?
I don’t think I’d necessarily say that I believe in god because it felt like a feeling. To me it was my question, “Do I believe in god?”, posed to myself, that ended it for me. I’m not saying that the realization that to me, god was but a feeling, didn’t have anything to do with it, because it did, but it wasn’t the main reason.
Well, this is all just my speculation on this subject, but, I would say that life does not have a point. There is no point to life. Why does there have to be a point? I know for a lot of people, that prospect is disturbing and unsettling. However, why do humans have to feel so self important that their lives have to have some significance? Do animals get a purpose? Do animals get to go to heaven? What is so different and special about us that we get to go to heaven, whereas animals and bacteria, and suns, and stars, and universes merely cease to exist, post having a meaningless life? To me, humans are no different than animals. I don’t require an inherent reason for life to be happy and to find beauty in everything. If anything, I find life more amazing when there is no reason for any of it. Beauty and kindness can exist for no purpose. Have you ever given a flower to a loved one, or helped a stranger for no other reason other than “just because”?
The difference between God and Jesus is this. God destroyed people for disobeying and not following him. Jesus gave people the choice, without consequence. Obviously later they would go to hell, but I meant with no direct consequence. Jesus, at least in my opinion, would be more apt to accept people with different ideas on life, and he would be more accepting of the “to each his own” philosophy.
Gingyninjy, I like you. Ha! Rather, I like this conversation and I’m glad we’re actually having it rather than me just creepin’ you out by reblogging your post with my life story. LOL :)
First of all, I want to clarify what I said about satisfaction. I do not believe that Christ is the way to be happy in life. In fact, I definitely will tell you that being a Christian does not equal perpetual happiness or some sort of supernatural delight. There are a lot of hardships that come from pursuing a life in Christ. However, I would still say that without a personal relationship with God, this life can never truly satisfy us. I keep throwing around the word “satisfaction,” so let me phrase it a little differently. People are born with a plethora of fleshly desires, or lusts as you truthfully put it. Filling those desires with other people and activities and things is something we do day after day. But the things of this world just do not compare to the things of God. 1 John 2:16 says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” It’s not that all these things aren’t great, positive things that are here for good reasons… but nothing of this world will stand in the end when it really matters.
I’m really sorry to hear that you had such a dreadful encounter with Christianity growing up. I can totally see how that would have pushed you away from God and away from strict principles and vague ideas associated with Christianity. But let me tell you that Christianity is more about what you do than what you don’t do. It’s not all about a set of rules, or church on Sunday, or how much you read the Bible. It’s not about saying no to sex and drugs and dating and all those things Christians can tell you to stay away from. It’s about Jesus Christ and what he did for you. It’s about knowing him and meeting him on a personal level. It’s about accepting the Grace of God revealed in the finished work of Christ.
If you stake the genuineness of your faith on how often you perform Christian practices or how “good” of a person you seem, then you haven’t experienced what it’s like to truly feel freedom. Trust me, I know what it’s like to feel freedom from rules and standards and nit-picky “Christian” things, but that is NOTHING compared to the freedom we have in Christ. John 8:32 says that when you know the Truth, it will set you free. Freedom in Christ means that God doesn’t expect you to be perfect because the chains of sin have been released.
It’s interesting to me that the main reason why you stopped pursuing Christianity was because it seemed like only a feeling. This is something that I have definitely been pondering lately. I’ve noticed that many people who grow up in different types of churches have experienced varying amounts of “feeling” when it comes to faith. Many people come to Christ because of an experience they’ve had where they really felt God’s presence or saw him working in their hearts. Someone once told me, “I met the joy of the Lord before I met the Lord.” When hardship came, and a lot of that joy went away, it was difficult for him to cling onto the person of Christ since a lot of his faith was based on experience. But through many prayers and through reading the Scriptures, he encountered the Lord in a much more substantial way than just his feelings.
Feelings come and go, but God remains the same. I rest in the fact that although I struggle to always feel Christ next to me or see God working around me, the Truth remains the same. For it is by Grace I have been saved. His Grace is like an ocean, and I’m sinking. He never lets go!
One more question I’d like to present… if each person creates their own meaning, what is the point of life? I would love some more insight into this idea, because I’ve encountered a lot of people with a similar frame of mind, but I haven’t been able to fully unravel it yet. I guess this concept brings me to imagine life beginning as a blank slate… each life paints another picture, and each person creates their own destiny in a way. But is there more? Does this slate rest on a single plane? That’s where I’d like to challenge this idea, but first I want to hear more. :)
I’ve really struggled to compose this post, because it’s hard to know how I will really come across in this kind of conversation. I want to love without condemnation, to speak with wisdom and without trepidation. I want to defy “to each his own,” but never to shoot down acceptance and humility. But I walk a fine line. I only hope that I can tread carefully, and my words can be used for good.
Well, I’m going to have to say I disagree with you about Christ being the only way to be fully happy for the rest of your life. I’ll try to explain this as short and sweet as I can, since when I tell this I tend to rant and give more details that I should. :P Since I was born, I was raised in a chrisitan home, I was always involved in religious stuff, I went to church all the time, I was homeschooled, so all my schooling and textbooks were made by christians that incorporated god into their ciriculum, and all my extraciricular activities were always either at the church, or some place that I would always be able to hear about god and stuff. Anyway, for the first 17 years of my life, I followed the teaching about god, because, well obviously because that’s what my parents had taught me. I had never really thought about my beliefs and why they were my beliefs or anything.
Now, I can honestly say, that being a christian, I went through some of the worst time in my life. I’m not saying I’m not going to experience anything worse, or that it was the worst that could ever happen to anyone, but I haven’t lived an awful long time, so I don’t have that much experience in the world to be able to say I’ve been devastated by anything, so at the moment, being a christian stays at the top. Anyway, I constantly felt like a crappy person when I was a christian. Obviously you know that the bible teaches people that they are worthless and don’t deserve anything except hell, but that’s where Jesus comes in and he forgives you and allows for you, by his sacrifice, to have the opportunity to enter heaven. Because of the bible and what it taught me, I was in a repetitive existence of feeling like complete garbage. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be as good of a christian as all my friends from church were. I didn’t understand why god would tell me to be and act a certain way, and then wire people [especially me] with desires and a natural lust [I use that in a non sexual manner] for anything opposite of what he teaches. I was told by my mother that it was morally right to read the bible, however I’ve never had a good attention span, and so reading books is really not my thing, unless I am really interested in it. The bible…I was hardly interested in reading it. Yes, I loved learning about god, I was active in a small bible study with all my friends from church, but I never read the bible. There were times when I tried, and times when I was depressed or having a difficult time in life that I searched it for answers. However in my bible study, time and time again I felt ashamed showing up because the leaders of our bible group [our dad’s, though, not mine] would ask us how well we did at staying in the word of god that week. I would usually lie about how much I read because my friends always talked about how they did 3 hour sessions of just reading the bible and taking notes, every day that week. I had at maximum, read the bible for an our over the span of the entire week, or less. I felt like I would be looked down upon and discriminated against if I told them, because we were always strongly encouraged to read the bible.
This is getting a tad longer than I expected so I’ll try to wrap this story up. As I was saying, the bible study stuff, among other things, made me feel horrible all the time. I felt like I wanted to be a good christian, and I wanted to do what god wanted me to do, and I wanted to please him in every way that I could…but when I tried to apply that to my life, it was incredibly difficult to be able to live that way. Time and time again I found myself [from a biblical perspective] making the wrong decisions, and then I’d reprimand myself mentally and I felt like I was constantly disappointing god. Just like Paul said, I do what I don’t want to do, and I don’t do what I desire to do. It even got so bad that there were many times I considered, and got close to killing myself because I was so deep in my depression that I didn’t want to live anymore because I couldn’t live the life that got wanted me to live. I couldn’t do anything right and I didn’t feel worth anything. I felt like I was too fucked up to be a good christian.
This is the part where I would tell you how I stopped believing in god, but I have an entire seperate note containing the abridged version on that, so for that information, read this note of mine. - http://gingyninjy.tumblr.com/post/6824013966/the-end-of-my-faith-in-god
So, when you say that christ is the only way someone can be fully happy, and it’s the only thing that can keep someone happy their entire life, I must respectfully disagree with you. I’m not denying that what you said may be true for you, but it’s definately different for me. After I became an atheist, my life got brighter, and I became a more positive person. Not only that, but through my entire depressive state I went through when I was dealing with christianity, the girl I’m with now, who I’ve been with for 2 years, she kept me sane that entire time. The only reason I didn’t kill myself, was her. She gave me a purpose to live, that purpose being to love her and to make her happy. After I discovered I didn’t believe in god…I can’t think of a better metaphor other than I felt like I had been released from a cage. I felt like all my old worries about everything I used to have, vanished. I’m not saying I don’t have any more worries and that I live a perfect existence, but I am saying that I have been more happy in these past 2 years of being an atheist than I had ever been at any moment being a christian. I don’t feel empty in any way, I don’t feel like my girlfriend doesn’t fill the “void” in my life that you refer to. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I know I don’t need god to make me happy.
Now I don’t want you to think I’m telling you this because I’m trying to tell you that [specifically] you don’t need god to be happy, I’m just saying that I don’t. You talked a lot about how your personal experiences are a huge driving force behind why you believe, well, for me, they were for why I don’t believe. Don’t get me wrong though, when I say I’m an atheist, a common misconception is that atheists say “God does not exist.”, I don’t say that. I’m saying I don’t believe in god. It’s possible that Jesus and all the bible stuff could be true and god exists, I just don’t believe in it. The evidence presented is not sufficient for me.
Where you say that you doubt your faith all the time, in my opinion, I honestly think that whatever a person may believe, doubt of it is extremely healthy for you. You doubting your faith is a wonderful thing for you to do. Doubt will make you search for answers, and will yield for you, a better understanding of what you believe for yourself and give you a deeper connection with it.
I’m going to address your outline in your post in the same way as it was presented to me, meaning, 1. my response 2. my response 3. my response. Anyway, before I get on with that, I want you to know something I should have stated at the beginning of this discussion. You may know this but I just want to clarify. I’m not trying to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not having this discussion in any sort of a hostile manner, I see this as two people with separate beliefs simply talking about their different perspectives on things, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m telling you how things are. I’m merely just telling you my side and listening to yours, I have no intention of expecting you to become and atheist, at all.
1. I can’t exactly touch too much on this one because this is outside my area of expertise. I don’t much about what the biblical and the scientific community say about the supposed historical evidence for christianity, so I’m not going to attempt to talk about this as if I do. Though I must disagree with your last comment that god is consistent. I know it’s typical of an atheist to say, but I don’t see god being consistent in the bible.
2. Well I’m curious as to what you mean by creation. You didn’t allude to anything in this post about how you think god created the world. I’m assuming you mean god just speaking everything into existence. However I have to ask you how much you know about evolution. Don’t get me wrong though, I really think you can believe in god and still believe in evolution, it’s not completely improbable that if god exists, that he used evolution to bring about life on earth. However I do think that us ranting back and forth to eachother about creationism vs evolution is a rehashed and over used argument to have and I think our time could be better spent discussing other things. :P
3. Yeah, exactly like I said before in this post, you spoke a lot of personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I’m not against anything that happens that bolsters your faith. If you see things or things happen to you that help you gain a deeper understanding of what you believe, then I’m all for it. When you say that you’re not going to stop sharing christ’s love with people, I have nothing against that, as long as you don’t tell anyone that they are wrong. Even if you think you’re right and christianity is the only way the live, [I’m not saying you don’t already] just have the respect to not force your belief on other people. Asking about other peoples’ beliefs and discussion them is perfectly fine, but attempting to convert someone is where I have a problem with believers. Not everyone wants to listen to it, so I think that believers should give people that respect and space, since they are given it themselves. Again, I’m not saying you force your belief on anyone, I’m speaking in general about religious people.
You say that life is meaningless, but I think otherwise. It may start out as meaningless, but as I’ve said before, I think each person creates their own meaning and reason for living.
Okay, well here’s where things seem to get… gritty. Because when I say that Christ is the only thing that can satisfy, I mean it! Not only have I personally experienced satisfaction in Christ time and time again, but I’ve seen so many broken lives being fulfilled by Christ. Even more than that, God Himself promises that although we will try to fill our voids with toy after toy, girl after boy, that wasn’t meant to be eternity’s life story. (to borrow words from Jimmy Needham’s “Benediction.” Check it out!)
People are just that… people. We have so many emotions and feelings and longings and human functions. We can feel satisfied by a lot of things, but I stand on the claim that nothing in this world can bring true satisfaction in the long run. And when I say the long run, I also include Forever. Because dying and spending eternity with Jesus will Truly be satisfying.
The truth is, I doubt my faith all the time. Of course I’ve thought about other religions, and thought, “What if I’m wrong? What if this is all just a theory that some dude invented and all these Christians are running around believing it, staking their lives on it like they’re the only ones who know what’s up?” But you know what? Those doubts don’t stick around for long. In fact, the more I question my faith, the more I’m convinced. And believe me, this isn’t some ignorant brain-washed convincing… I’m wholeheartedly convinced.
Let’s see… I’m not keen on writing an entire sermon, but of course I’ll give you an outline. :)
1. I believe the Bible is the true and living word of God. It has been proven historically correct by tons of historians, archeologists and scientists, etc. As I am none of those, I won’t try to sound like I am. What convinced me the most that the Bible truly comes from God was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written over two thousand years ago, these passages of Scripture are exactly identical to the Bibles we have today. With 2 thousand years of rewriting and passing down, I simply cannot believe that no mistake was made, that nothing changed. The fact that it didn’t proves to me that God maintains the inerrancy of His Word. I believe and follow the Word of God because the life it offers, compared to other lifestyles and worldviews, seems the most logical. God doesn’t contradict Himself; He’s consistent.
2. Creation gets me every time. I’m not eloquent at scientifically proving that God created the world, but the complexity and beauty of nature… coming from nothing? I mean, really? It just makes no sense to me!! Think about it, if God is real, and He’s all-powerful and all-knowing… it would bring him so much glory to plan and form an entire world! It’s kind of hard to wrap my mind around, because humans have tried to explain so many things through science alone, but to me I look around the world, and I can’t help but see God.
3. A lot of why I believe in God and claim to be a Christian is based on my personal experience. When I was a little kid, accepting what the adults said around me, I believed things without questioning them. In high school, when I realized I needed to discover belief for myself, I searched but couldn’t find an inconsistency in Christianity. Looking back over my life, I saw so many qualities of God that I had experienced. I saw so many truths of the Bible being fleshed out in the world around me. I realized that the only reasons that kept me from embracing Christianity were selfish. I didn’t want to accept the idea that I was born a sinner and deserved death. I didn’t want to be held to strict standards, to be limited in what I can and can’t do because it’s wrong or right. I didn’t want to have to go to Church on Sundays and listen to pastors drone on about prophets in the Old Testament.
But I couldn’t ignore God. He kept coming back to me, no matter how much I tried to live my own way and find what made me happy. God had a hold on my heart, and He wasn’t gonna let go. I can’t even explain what it’s like to know with certainty that God is real and that Christianity (not “religion”) IS what it’s all about.
I can’t pretend that there aren’t things that I don’t understand, or that I live like a genuine Christian every second of every day, but I also can’t pretend that there’s room for more than one Truth. I’m not going to turn my nose at those who don’t believe, and I’m not going to judge and hate and condemn. I see no reason why we can’t treat each other with respect and live alongside each other in this crazy world. :P
But I’m not going to stop trying to share the love of Christ with those around me, because I’m convinced through and through that God is the Truth, and that without Him, life is meaningless.
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
I’m not a stranger to the good feelings you described getting in your belief in god. I know in my past notes I’ve only highlighted the bad parts, but I certainly know the good feelings people get in this religion. I have to say though, at least for myself, now being an atheist, I can look into my past, and even look at events going on with me right now, and pose the question, “did god do this?”. There is nothing that has ever happened to me or that is currently happening to me, that was incapable of happening without the existence of god. I know that when a person believes in god, when something happens, their natural instinct is to immediately thank god and see it as an act coming from him. I can just see how, whether or not god exists, there is nothing that has happened to me that couldn’t have happened without god being behind it.
When you speak of satisfaction, really the most I can say is, I feel more satisfaction without god. When I was in christianity, yes there was that feeling of satisfaction from god, but there was also a slight empty feeling. Like I was missing out on something, or that there might be something more. Though I knew hardly anything regarding any other belief systems outside my own, especially atheism [though I am not saying atheism is a belief system]. Hypothetically let’s say god is real. Heaven and hell are real and unless I change my ways, I’m going to hell. Under the pretenses that christianity is correct - it doesn’t matter to me. Even if I knew god was real, I wouldn’t follow him. Yes, I’d have to admit I’d believe in him, since I obviously knew he was real, but I would not accept him as my saviour. I would rather go to hell then follow god and go to heaven. I’d rather enjoy my life on earth and do what I wish to do without consequence than to feel imprisoned by biblical laws. I know that may sound extreme to you, but it’s just the way I feel about it.
Honestly, I don’t have a clue on how to stake the genuineness of a person’s faith on anything. This was something we often discussed in my bible study. “How do you know if you’re saved”. A myriad of questions were posed as to what you could do and remain saved. Such as, could you have honestly and truly accept god into your heart, and then proceed to live your life as if he never existed? Would you have truly been a christian? Could you accept god into your heart, and then live life in the most horrific and terrible way possible? Would god forgive you if before you died you asked for forgiveness, or were you never truly saved to begin with? Or, if you asked god to be your saviour, would you obtain a natural desire to follow his will and do good? If that’s the case, was I ever really a christian? Is there a certain amount a christian is able to sin before he sins too much and is deemed to never really have been saved to begin with?
I don’t think I’d necessarily say that I believe in god because it felt like a feeling. To me it was my question, “Do I believe in god?”, posed to myself, that ended it for me. I’m not saying that the realization that to me, god was but a feeling, didn’t have anything to do with it, because it did, but it wasn’t the main reason.
Well, this is all just my speculation on this subject, but, I would say that life does not have a point. There is no point to life. Why does there have to be a point? I know for a lot of people, that prospect is disturbing and unsettling. However, why do humans have to feel so self important that their lives have to have some significance? Do animals get a purpose? Do animals get to go to heaven? What is so different and special about us that we get to go to heaven, whereas animals and bacteria, and suns, and stars, and universes merely cease to exist, post having a meaningless life? To me, humans are no different than animals. I don’t require an inherent reason for life to be happy and to find beauty in everything. If anything, I find life more amazing when there is no reason for any of it. Beauty and kindness can exist for no purpose. Have you ever given a flower to a loved one, or helped a stranger for no other reason other than “just because”?
The difference between God and Jesus is this. God destroyed people for disobeying and not following him. Jesus gave people the choice, without consequence. Obviously later they would go to hell, but I meant with no direct consequence. Jesus, at least in my opinion, would be more apt to accept people with different ideas on life, and he would be more accepting of the “to each his own” philosophy.
Gingyninjy, I like you. Ha! Rather, I like this conversation and I’m glad we’re actually having it rather than me just creepin’ you out by reblogging your post with my life story. LOL :)
First of all, I want to clarify what I said about satisfaction. I do not believe that Christ is the way to be happy in life. In fact, I definitely will tell you that being a Christian does not equal perpetual happiness or some sort of supernatural delight. There are a lot of hardships that come from pursuing a life in Christ. However, I would still say that without a personal relationship with God, this life can never truly satisfy us. I keep throwing around the word “satisfaction,” so let me phrase it a little differently. People are born with a plethora of fleshly desires, or lusts as you truthfully put it. Filling those desires with other people and activities and things is something we do day after day. But the things of this world just do not compare to the things of God. 1 John 2:16 says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” It’s not that all these things aren’t great, positive things that are here for good reasons… but nothing of this world will stand in the end when it really matters.
I’m really sorry to hear that you had such a dreadful encounter with Christianity growing up. I can totally see how that would have pushed you away from God and away from strict principles and vague ideas associated with Christianity. But let me tell you that Christianity is more about what you do than what you don’t do. It’s not all about a set of rules, or church on Sunday, or how much you read the Bible. It’s not about saying no to sex and drugs and dating and all those things Christians can tell you to stay away from. It’s about Jesus Christ and what he did for you. It’s about knowing him and meeting him on a personal level. It’s about accepting the Grace of God revealed in the finished work of Christ.
If you stake the genuineness of your faith on how often you perform Christian practices or how “good” of a person you seem, then you haven’t experienced what it’s like to truly feel freedom. Trust me, I know what it’s like to feel freedom from rules and standards and nit-picky “Christian” things, but that is NOTHING compared to the freedom we have in Christ. John 8:32 says that when you know the Truth, it will set you free. Freedom in Christ means that God doesn’t expect you to be perfect because the chains of sin have been released.
It’s interesting to me that the main reason why you stopped pursuing Christianity was because it seemed like only a feeling. This is something that I have definitely been pondering lately. I’ve noticed that many people who grow up in different types of churches have experienced varying amounts of “feeling” when it comes to faith. Many people come to Christ because of an experience they’ve had where they really felt God’s presence or saw him working in their hearts. Someone once told me, “I met the joy of the Lord before I met the Lord.” When hardship came, and a lot of that joy went away, it was difficult for him to cling onto the person of Christ since a lot of his faith was based on experience. But through many prayers and through reading the Scriptures, he encountered the Lord in a much more substantial way than just his feelings.
Feelings come and go, but God remains the same. I rest in the fact that although I struggle to always feel Christ next to me or see God working around me, the Truth remains the same. For it is by Grace I have been saved. His Grace is like an ocean, and I’m sinking. He never lets go!
One more question I’d like to present… if each person creates their own meaning, what is the point of life? I would love some more insight into this idea, because I’ve encountered a lot of people with a similar frame of mind, but I haven’t been able to fully unravel it yet. I guess this concept brings me to imagine life beginning as a blank slate… each life paints another picture, and each person creates their own destiny in a way. But is there more? Does this slate rest on a single plane? That’s where I’d like to challenge this idea, but first I want to hear more. :)
I’ve really struggled to compose this post, because it’s hard to know how I will really come across in this kind of conversation. I want to love without condemnation, to speak with wisdom and without trepidation. I want to defy “to each his own,” but never to shoot down acceptance and humility. But I walk a fine line. I only hope that I can tread carefully, and my words can be used for good.
Well, I’m going to have to say I disagree with you about Christ being the only way to be fully happy for the rest of your life. I’ll try to explain this as short and sweet as I can, since when I tell this I tend to rant and give more details that I should. :P Since I was born, I was raised in a chrisitan home, I was always involved in religious stuff, I went to church all the time, I was homeschooled, so all my schooling and textbooks were made by christians that incorporated god into their ciriculum, and all my extraciricular activities were always either at the church, or some place that I would always be able to hear about god and stuff. Anyway, for the first 17 years of my life, I followed the teaching about god, because, well obviously because that’s what my parents had taught me. I had never really thought about my beliefs and why they were my beliefs or anything.
Now, I can honestly say, that being a christian, I went through some of the worst time in my life. I’m not saying I’m not going to experience anything worse, or that it was the worst that could ever happen to anyone, but I haven’t lived an awful long time, so I don’t have that much experience in the world to be able to say I’ve been devastated by anything, so at the moment, being a christian stays at the top. Anyway, I constantly felt like a crappy person when I was a christian. Obviously you know that the bible teaches people that they are worthless and don’t deserve anything except hell, but that’s where Jesus comes in and he forgives you and allows for you, by his sacrifice, to have the opportunity to enter heaven. Because of the bible and what it taught me, I was in a repetitive existence of feeling like complete garbage. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be as good of a christian as all my friends from church were. I didn’t understand why god would tell me to be and act a certain way, and then wire people [especially me] with desires and a natural lust [I use that in a non sexual manner] for anything opposite of what he teaches. I was told by my mother that it was morally right to read the bible, however I’ve never had a good attention span, and so reading books is really not my thing, unless I am really interested in it. The bible…I was hardly interested in reading it. Yes, I loved learning about god, I was active in a small bible study with all my friends from church, but I never read the bible. There were times when I tried, and times when I was depressed or having a difficult time in life that I searched it for answers. However in my bible study, time and time again I felt ashamed showing up because the leaders of our bible group [our dad’s, though, not mine] would ask us how well we did at staying in the word of god that week. I would usually lie about how much I read because my friends always talked about how they did 3 hour sessions of just reading the bible and taking notes, every day that week. I had at maximum, read the bible for an our over the span of the entire week, or less. I felt like I would be looked down upon and discriminated against if I told them, because we were always strongly encouraged to read the bible.
This is getting a tad longer than I expected so I’ll try to wrap this story up. As I was saying, the bible study stuff, among other things, made me feel horrible all the time. I felt like I wanted to be a good christian, and I wanted to do what god wanted me to do, and I wanted to please him in every way that I could…but when I tried to apply that to my life, it was incredibly difficult to be able to live that way. Time and time again I found myself [from a biblical perspective] making the wrong decisions, and then I’d reprimand myself mentally and I felt like I was constantly disappointing god. Just like Paul said, I do what I don’t want to do, and I don’t do what I desire to do. It even got so bad that there were many times I considered, and got close to killing myself because I was so deep in my depression that I didn’t want to live anymore because I couldn’t live the life that got wanted me to live. I couldn’t do anything right and I didn’t feel worth anything. I felt like I was too fucked up to be a good christian.
This is the part where I would tell you how I stopped believing in god, but I have an entire seperate note containing the abridged version on that, so for that information, read this note of mine. - http://gingyninjy.tumblr.com/post/6824013966/the-end-of-my-faith-in-god
So, when you say that christ is the only way someone can be fully happy, and it’s the only thing that can keep someone happy their entire life, I must respectfully disagree with you. I’m not denying that what you said may be true for you, but it’s definately different for me. After I became an atheist, my life got brighter, and I became a more positive person. Not only that, but through my entire depressive state I went through when I was dealing with christianity, the girl I’m with now, who I’ve been with for 2 years, she kept me sane that entire time. The only reason I didn’t kill myself, was her. She gave me a purpose to live, that purpose being to love her and to make her happy. After I discovered I didn’t believe in god…I can’t think of a better metaphor other than I felt like I had been released from a cage. I felt like all my old worries about everything I used to have, vanished. I’m not saying I don’t have any more worries and that I live a perfect existence, but I am saying that I have been more happy in these past 2 years of being an atheist than I had ever been at any moment being a christian. I don’t feel empty in any way, I don’t feel like my girlfriend doesn’t fill the “void” in my life that you refer to. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I know I don’t need god to make me happy.
Now I don’t want you to think I’m telling you this because I’m trying to tell you that [specifically] you don’t need god to be happy, I’m just saying that I don’t. You talked a lot about how your personal experiences are a huge driving force behind why you believe, well, for me, they were for why I don’t believe. Don’t get me wrong though, when I say I’m an atheist, a common misconception is that atheists say “God does not exist.”, I don’t say that. I’m saying I don’t believe in god. It’s possible that Jesus and all the bible stuff could be true and god exists, I just don’t believe in it. The evidence presented is not sufficient for me.
Where you say that you doubt your faith all the time, in my opinion, I honestly think that whatever a person may believe, doubt of it is extremely healthy for you. You doubting your faith is a wonderful thing for you to do. Doubt will make you search for answers, and will yield for you, a better understanding of what you believe for yourself and give you a deeper connection with it.
I’m going to address your outline in your post in the same way as it was presented to me, meaning, 1. my response 2. my response 3. my response. Anyway, before I get on with that, I want you to know something I should have stated at the beginning of this discussion. You may know this but I just want to clarify. I’m not trying to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not having this discussion in any sort of a hostile manner, I see this as two people with separate beliefs simply talking about their different perspectives on things, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m telling you how things are. I’m merely just telling you my side and listening to yours, I have no intention of expecting you to become and atheist, at all.
1. I can’t exactly touch too much on this one because this is outside my area of expertise. I don’t much about what the biblical and the scientific community say about the supposed historical evidence for christianity, so I’m not going to attempt to talk about this as if I do. Though I must disagree with your last comment that god is consistent. I know it’s typical of an atheist to say, but I don’t see god being consistent in the bible.
2. Well I’m curious as to what you mean by creation. You didn’t allude to anything in this post about how you think god created the world. I’m assuming you mean god just speaking everything into existence. However I have to ask you how much you know about evolution. Don’t get me wrong though, I really think you can believe in god and still believe in evolution, it’s not completely improbable that if god exists, that he used evolution to bring about life on earth. However I do think that us ranting back and forth to eachother about creationism vs evolution is a rehashed and over used argument to have and I think our time could be better spent discussing other things. :P
3. Yeah, exactly like I said before in this post, you spoke a lot of personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I’m not against anything that happens that bolsters your faith. If you see things or things happen to you that help you gain a deeper understanding of what you believe, then I’m all for it. When you say that you’re not going to stop sharing christ’s love with people, I have nothing against that, as long as you don’t tell anyone that they are wrong. Even if you think you’re right and christianity is the only way the live, [I’m not saying you don’t already] just have the respect to not force your belief on other people. Asking about other peoples’ beliefs and discussion them is perfectly fine, but attempting to convert someone is where I have a problem with believers. Not everyone wants to listen to it, so I think that believers should give people that respect and space, since they are given it themselves. Again, I’m not saying you force your belief on anyone, I’m speaking in general about religious people.
You say that life is meaningless, but I think otherwise. It may start out as meaningless, but as I’ve said before, I think each person creates their own meaning and reason for living.
Okay, well here’s where things seem to get… gritty. Because when I say that Christ is the only thing that can satisfy, I mean it! Not only have I personally experienced satisfaction in Christ time and time again, but I’ve seen so many broken lives being fulfilled by Christ. Even more than that, God Himself promises that although we will try to fill our voids with toy after toy, girl after boy, that wasn’t meant to be eternity’s life story. (to borrow words from Jimmy Needham’s “Benediction.” Check it out!)
People are just that… people. We have so many emotions and feelings and longings and human functions. We can feel satisfied by a lot of things, but I stand on the claim that nothing in this world can bring true satisfaction in the long run. And when I say the long run, I also include Forever. Because dying and spending eternity with Jesus will Truly be satisfying.
The truth is, I doubt my faith all the time. Of course I’ve thought about other religions, and thought, “What if I’m wrong? What if this is all just a theory that some dude invented and all these Christians are running around believing it, staking their lives on it like they’re the only ones who know what’s up?” But you know what? Those doubts don’t stick around for long. In fact, the more I question my faith, the more I’m convinced. And believe me, this isn’t some ignorant brain-washed convincing… I’m wholeheartedly convinced.
Let’s see… I’m not keen on writing an entire sermon, but of course I’ll give you an outline. :)
1. I believe the Bible is the true and living word of God. It has been proven historically correct by tons of historians, archeologists and scientists, etc. As I am none of those, I won’t try to sound like I am. What convinced me the most that the Bible truly comes from God was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written over two thousand years ago, these passages of Scripture are exactly identical to the Bibles we have today. With 2 thousand years of rewriting and passing down, I simply cannot believe that no mistake was made, that nothing changed. The fact that it didn’t proves to me that God maintains the inerrancy of His Word. I believe and follow the Word of God because the life it offers, compared to other lifestyles and worldviews, seems the most logical. God doesn’t contradict Himself; He’s consistent.
2. Creation gets me every time. I’m not eloquent at scientifically proving that God created the world, but the complexity and beauty of nature… coming from nothing? I mean, really? It just makes no sense to me!! Think about it, if God is real, and He’s all-powerful and all-knowing… it would bring him so much glory to plan and form an entire world! It’s kind of hard to wrap my mind around, because humans have tried to explain so many things through science alone, but to me I look around the world, and I can’t help but see God.
3. A lot of why I believe in God and claim to be a Christian is based on my personal experience. When I was a little kid, accepting what the adults said around me, I believed things without questioning them. In high school, when I realized I needed to discover belief for myself, I searched but couldn’t find an inconsistency in Christianity. Looking back over my life, I saw so many qualities of God that I had experienced. I saw so many truths of the Bible being fleshed out in the world around me. I realized that the only reasons that kept me from embracing Christianity were selfish. I didn’t want to accept the idea that I was born a sinner and deserved death. I didn’t want to be held to strict standards, to be limited in what I can and can’t do because it’s wrong or right. I didn’t want to have to go to Church on Sundays and listen to pastors drone on about prophets in the Old Testament.
But I couldn’t ignore God. He kept coming back to me, no matter how much I tried to live my own way and find what made me happy. God had a hold on my heart, and He wasn’t gonna let go. I can’t even explain what it’s like to know with certainty that God is real and that Christianity (not “religion”) IS what it’s all about.
I can’t pretend that there aren’t things that I don’t understand, or that I live like a genuine Christian every second of every day, but I also can’t pretend that there’s room for more than one Truth. I’m not going to turn my nose at those who don’t believe, and I’m not going to judge and hate and condemn. I see no reason why we can’t treat each other with respect and live alongside each other in this crazy world. :P
But I’m not going to stop trying to share the love of Christ with those around me, because I’m convinced through and through that God is the Truth, and that without Him, life is meaningless.
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
Well, I’m going to have to say I disagree with you about Christ being the only way to be fully happy for the rest of your life. I’ll try to explain this as short and sweet as I can, since when I tell this I tend to rant and give more details that I should. :P Since I was born, I was raised in a chrisitan home, I was always involved in religious stuff, I went to church all the time, I was homeschooled, so all my schooling and textbooks were made by christians that incorporated god into their ciriculum, and all my extraciricular activities were always either at the church, or some place that I would always be able to hear about god and stuff. Anyway, for the first 17 years of my life, I followed the teaching about god, because, well obviously because that’s what my parents had taught me. I had never really thought about my beliefs and why they were my beliefs or anything.
Now, I can honestly say, that being a christian, I went through some of the worst time in my life. I’m not saying I’m not going to experience anything worse, or that it was the worst that could ever happen to anyone, but I haven’t lived an awful long time, so I don’t have that much experience in the world to be able to say I’ve been devastated by anything, so at the moment, being a christian stays at the top. Anyway, I constantly felt like a crappy person when I was a christian. Obviously you know that the bible teaches people that they are worthless and don’t deserve anything except hell, but that’s where Jesus comes in and he forgives you and allows for you, by his sacrifice, to have the opportunity to enter heaven. Because of the bible and what it taught me, I was in a repetitive existence of feeling like complete garbage. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t be as good of a christian as all my friends from church were. I didn’t understand why god would tell me to be and act a certain way, and then wire people [especially me] with desires and a natural lust [I use that in a non sexual manner] for anything opposite of what he teaches. I was told by my mother that it was morally right to read the bible, however I’ve never had a good attention span, and so reading books is really not my thing, unless I am really interested in it. The bible…I was hardly interested in reading it. Yes, I loved learning about god, I was active in a small bible study with all my friends from church, but I never read the bible. There were times when I tried, and times when I was depressed or having a difficult time in life that I searched it for answers. However in my bible study, time and time again I felt ashamed showing up because the leaders of our bible group [our dad’s, though, not mine] would ask us how well we did at staying in the word of god that week. I would usually lie about how much I read because my friends always talked about how they did 3 hour sessions of just reading the bible and taking notes, every day that week. I had at maximum, read the bible for an our over the span of the entire week, or less. I felt like I would be looked down upon and discriminated against if I told them, because we were always strongly encouraged to read the bible.
This is getting a tad longer than I expected so I’ll try to wrap this story up. As I was saying, the bible study stuff, among other things, made me feel horrible all the time. I felt like I wanted to be a good christian, and I wanted to do what god wanted me to do, and I wanted to please him in every way that I could…but when I tried to apply that to my life, it was incredibly difficult to be able to live that way. Time and time again I found myself [from a biblical perspective] making the wrong decisions, and then I’d reprimand myself mentally and I felt like I was constantly disappointing god. Just like Paul said, I do what I don’t want to do, and I don’t do what I desire to do. It even got so bad that there were many times I considered, and got close to killing myself because I was so deep in my depression that I didn’t want to live anymore because I couldn’t live the life that got wanted me to live. I couldn’t do anything right and I didn’t feel worth anything. I felt like I was too fucked up to be a good christian.
This is the part where I would tell you how I stopped believing in god, but I have an entire seperate note containing the abridged version on that, so for that information, read this note of mine. - http://gingyninjy.tumblr.com/post/6824013966/the-end-of-my-faith-in-god
So, when you say that christ is the only way someone can be fully happy, and it’s the only thing that can keep someone happy their entire life, I must respectfully disagree with you. I’m not denying that what you said may be true for you, but it’s definately different for me. After I became an atheist, my life got brighter, and I became a more positive person. Not only that, but through my entire depressive state I went through when I was dealing with christianity, the girl I’m with now, who I’ve been with for 2 years, she kept me sane that entire time. The only reason I didn’t kill myself, was her. She gave me a purpose to live, that purpose being to love her and to make her happy. After I discovered I didn’t believe in god…I can’t think of a better metaphor other than I felt like I had been released from a cage. I felt like all my old worries about everything I used to have, vanished. I’m not saying I don’t have any more worries and that I live a perfect existence, but I am saying that I have been more happy in these past 2 years of being an atheist than I had ever been at any moment being a christian. I don’t feel empty in any way, I don’t feel like my girlfriend doesn’t fill the “void” in my life that you refer to. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I know I don’t need god to make me happy.
Now I don’t want you to think I’m telling you this because I’m trying to tell you that [specifically] you don’t need god to be happy, I’m just saying that I don’t. You talked a lot about how your personal experiences are a huge driving force behind why you believe, well, for me, they were for why I don’t believe. Don’t get me wrong though, when I say I’m an atheist, a common misconception is that atheists say “God does not exist.”, I don’t say that. I’m saying I don’t believe in god. It’s possible that Jesus and all the bible stuff could be true and god exists, I just don’t believe in it. The evidence presented is not sufficient for me.
Where you say that you doubt your faith all the time, in my opinion, I honestly think that whatever a person may believe, doubt of it is extremely healthy for you. You doubting your faith is a wonderful thing for you to do. Doubt will make you search for answers, and will yield for you, a better understanding of what you believe for yourself and give you a deeper connection with it.
I’m going to address your outline in your post in the same way as it was presented to me, meaning, 1. my response 2. my response 3. my response. Anyway, before I get on with that, I want you to know something I should have stated at the beginning of this discussion. You may know this but I just want to clarify. I’m not trying to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convert you. I’m not having this discussion in any sort of a hostile manner, I see this as two people with separate beliefs simply talking about their different perspectives on things, so I don’t want you to feel like I’m telling you how things are. I’m merely just telling you my side and listening to yours, I have no intention of expecting you to become and atheist, at all.
1. I can’t exactly touch too much on this one because this is outside my area of expertise. I don’t much about what the biblical and the scientific community say about the supposed historical evidence for christianity, so I’m not going to attempt to talk about this as if I do. Though I must disagree with your last comment that god is consistent. I know it’s typical of an atheist to say, but I don’t see god being consistent in the bible.
2. Well I’m curious as to what you mean by creation. You didn’t allude to anything in this post about how you think god created the world. I’m assuming you mean god just speaking everything into existence. However I have to ask you how much you know about evolution. Don’t get me wrong though, I really think you can believe in god and still believe in evolution, it’s not completely improbable that if god exists, that he used evolution to bring about life on earth. However I do think that us ranting back and forth to eachother about creationism vs evolution is a rehashed and over used argument to have and I think our time could be better spent discussing other things. :P
3. Yeah, exactly like I said before in this post, you spoke a lot of personal experience. There is nothing wrong with that whatsoever, and I’m not against anything that happens that bolsters your faith. If you see things or things happen to you that help you gain a deeper understanding of what you believe, then I’m all for it. When you say that you’re not going to stop sharing christ’s love with people, I have nothing against that, as long as you don’t tell anyone that they are wrong. Even if you think you’re right and christianity is the only way the live, [I’m not saying you don’t already] just have the respect to not force your belief on other people. Asking about other peoples’ beliefs and discussion them is perfectly fine, but attempting to convert someone is where I have a problem with believers. Not everyone wants to listen to it, so I think that believers should give people that respect and space, since they are given it themselves. Again, I’m not saying you force your belief on anyone, I’m speaking in general about religious people.
You say that life is meaningless, but I think otherwise. It may start out as meaningless, but as I’ve said before, I think each person creates their own meaning and reason for living.
Okay, well here’s where things seem to get… gritty. Because when I say that Christ is the only thing that can satisfy, I mean it! Not only have I personally experienced satisfaction in Christ time and time again, but I’ve seen so many broken lives being fulfilled by Christ. Even more than that, God Himself promises that although we will try to fill our voids with toy after toy, girl after boy, that wasn’t meant to be eternity’s life story. (to borrow words from Jimmy Needham’s “Benediction.” Check it out!)
People are just that… people. We have so many emotions and feelings and longings and human functions. We can feel satisfied by a lot of things, but I stand on the claim that nothing in this world can bring true satisfaction in the long run. And when I say the long run, I also include Forever. Because dying and spending eternity with Jesus will Truly be satisfying.
The truth is, I doubt my faith all the time. Of course I’ve thought about other religions, and thought, “What if I’m wrong? What if this is all just a theory that some dude invented and all these Christians are running around believing it, staking their lives on it like they’re the only ones who know what’s up?” But you know what? Those doubts don’t stick around for long. In fact, the more I question my faith, the more I’m convinced. And believe me, this isn’t some ignorant brain-washed convincing… I’m wholeheartedly convinced.
Let’s see… I’m not keen on writing an entire sermon, but of course I’ll give you an outline. :)
1. I believe the Bible is the true and living word of God. It has been proven historically correct by tons of historians, archeologists and scientists, etc. As I am none of those, I won’t try to sound like I am. What convinced me the most that the Bible truly comes from God was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written over two thousand years ago, these passages of Scripture are exactly identical to the Bibles we have today. With 2 thousand years of rewriting and passing down, I simply cannot believe that no mistake was made, that nothing changed. The fact that it didn’t proves to me that God maintains the inerrancy of His Word. I believe and follow the Word of God because the life it offers, compared to other lifestyles and worldviews, seems the most logical. God doesn’t contradict Himself; He’s consistent.
2. Creation gets me every time. I’m not eloquent at scientifically proving that God created the world, but the complexity and beauty of nature… coming from nothing? I mean, really? It just makes no sense to me!! Think about it, if God is real, and He’s all-powerful and all-knowing… it would bring him so much glory to plan and form an entire world! It’s kind of hard to wrap my mind around, because humans have tried to explain so many things through science alone, but to me I look around the world, and I can’t help but see God.
3. A lot of why I believe in God and claim to be a Christian is based on my personal experience. When I was a little kid, accepting what the adults said around me, I believed things without questioning them. In high school, when I realized I needed to discover belief for myself, I searched but couldn’t find an inconsistency in Christianity. Looking back over my life, I saw so many qualities of God that I had experienced. I saw so many truths of the Bible being fleshed out in the world around me. I realized that the only reasons that kept me from embracing Christianity were selfish. I didn’t want to accept the idea that I was born a sinner and deserved death. I didn’t want to be held to strict standards, to be limited in what I can and can’t do because it’s wrong or right. I didn’t want to have to go to Church on Sundays and listen to pastors drone on about prophets in the Old Testament.
But I couldn’t ignore God. He kept coming back to me, no matter how much I tried to live my own way and find what made me happy. God had a hold on my heart, and He wasn’t gonna let go. I can’t even explain what it’s like to know with certainty that God is real and that Christianity (not “religion”) IS what it’s all about.
I can’t pretend that there aren’t things that I don’t understand, or that I live like a genuine Christian every second of every day, but I also can’t pretend that there’s room for more than one Truth. I’m not going to turn my nose at those who don’t believe, and I’m not going to judge and hate and condemn. I see no reason why we can’t treat each other with respect and live alongside each other in this crazy world. :P
But I’m not going to stop trying to share the love of Christ with those around me, because I’m convinced through and through that God is the Truth, and that without Him, life is meaningless.
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
Oh don’t worry about that at all. I easily can see how one could see my post in that light, and it’s completely understandable that you responded in the manner that you did.
I have a couple questions about what you said in your elaboration. I’m wondering if when you say things like: “Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy.” or “- is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do.”, do you mean those as things for yourself, or for everybody? I think you meant it for yourself, but you didn’t use any words that make those point specifically to you, so I have to ask.
I do want you to know though, that I completely understand why you choose to believe in and follow god. I mean, I was a devout christian for 17 years, but that’s beside the point. What I’m getting at, is that I know everyone is different. Some people can get along just fine without believing in a purpose or reasons or a god, and some people…not that they can’t, it just more their cup of tea. I utterly understand “to each his own” and I fully respect that. If believing in and praising the biblical god is what keeps you going and provides light and a smile to your life, then that’s wonderful and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with that groove. Always do what makes you happy.
I think it’s great that you were able to find a purpose for your life! It’s good to hear that you’re doing what makes you happy and you’ve made the decision on what you want to do in life. I personally think that there is no inherent reason for living, and so a person creates their own reason. The best way to fulfill yourself in creating your own purpose is to choose to do something you enjoy doing, and you obviously really enjoy following Christ. You also don’t come off as arrogant or ignorant as the majority of christians I’ve had discussions with, and I must compliment you on how refreshing it is to see that. It’s also good to hear you say that you don’t claim to have the answers. Although it does lead me to a question on this matter. Do you think that, regarding your faith, that you could be wrong? That there is a possibility that the god you believe in could not exist? Even if you don’t think you are, do you think it’s possible? Or do you think that there is no way you’re wrong and you’re way is the only correct worldview to uphold?
Don’t sweat it, I don’t see you coming off as judgmental or confrontational. I’m glad you gave me your two cents on my note. I really do immensely enjoy conversations regarding things like this. Especially when it can be done in a respectful manner, and double especially when the person I’m having the discussion with is intelligent on the matter.
I’m sorry I misinterpreted your post; I honestly had no intentions of doing so. I just felt that you made some generalizations that have definitely been contradicted in my experience… what little experience I have in the grand scheme of things.
Now to elaborate a bit :)
When I say my life sucks without Christ, what I mean is that I believe my life was extraordinarily empty before I met Christ, and that living for Him, through Him and with Him is the most satisfying thing a person could ever do. My life is actually pretty fantastic, in comparison with a lot of people… I have a family who really loves me, I’m receiving an excellent education, I’ve always had great friends, I make good money, and there’s really not much I have to worry about on a day-to-day basis. But that’s all just life. I mean, I go along every day and I work, I hang out with people, I sleep and I eat…. but there’s always this self-orientation about things that simply doesn’t satisfy. Even the deepest love for another person doesn’t truly satisfy. That’s part of what I mean by my life sucking without Christ; I mean that it’s devoid of meaning, sort of wandering and self-seeking all the time, which gets… dry, exhausting and boring. And I can never seem to fix my own troubles, you know? They just hit me like a freight train and I’m swept along the bumpy road of life.
So that’s where Rescue comes in. I stand on the Truth that Christ has redeemed my life, so that my purpose is so much greater than making myself happy, pleasing other people, or even making a good difference in the world. Living and breathing for Christ, my Savior, is an utterly breathtaking experience… and I just want to share it with everybody! I don’t claim to have all the answers or understand all the questions and complexities, but I stand on Grace.
And about the speck thing, I guess I phrased it kind of strangely… haha but what I intended to portray was that I am one in a million people that bustle about in life every day. I mean, when you think about it from an arial view, or from God’s view, I’m just another wrinkle in time. I don’t think of myself as some insignificant being who can’t make a ripple in the world, but I guess it’s humbling to realize how much more there is than me and my “big” life.
Anyway, I’d love to continue this conversation and I hope I don’t come across uber confrontational or judgmental. :P I just tumbled across your post and decided to share my thoughts!
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
A Brain Reservoir: Why religious? →
gingyninjy.tumblr.com
If that’s the way you wish to perceive my post [inaccurate], then that’s entirely your prerogative. I speak only from what I knew growing up in a christian home and from what I’ve seen from my friends in their homes. I wasn’t speaking for the majority of christian’s homes, I was speaking in a generalization. I didn’t include or exclude the idea of the circumstances that you presented in your response, so they are no exempt from being possible.
I think it’s wonderful that you were taught that. There is nothing I like more in a religious person than the qualities of curiosity, doubt, and the guts to question. Even if you still believe, more power to you. Questioning is a very useful tool to help you learn more about what you’re own beliefs are and grow and mature in them, whatever they may be. I don’t have to agree with your beliefs to tell you that either. Your life sucks without Christ? I’m sorry to hear that…you’ve found Christ? Then I can genuinely say, I’m happy for you. :] I’m not against people believing or doing whatever they want to [provided it doesn’t effect anyone else negatively - it’s also a bonus if they can be smart regarding it, and you sound reasonably intelligent], it doesn’t bother me. So I say that if believing in Christ and following his teaching provides you with meaning for life and provides you with happiness, then go you! That’s great! I would honestly hate for you to force yourself to live an unhappy existence. Christianity is perfectly fine by me.
Yes, we may differ on our spiritual beliefs and the such, but I see that as no reason to treat you any differently than I would of any other walk of life. As well, I see a person’s belief system as something that is not a bases to look down on them for. I may say that I have a slightly different opinion on myself being a speck on earth and my existence in my perceivable empty universe, but to me, that is not reason to come between us as individuals. I sincerely do appreciate your response to my message, and I enjoyed the opportunity to respond to you.
Hey guess what, gingyninjy?
I grew up in a Christian home, but I was taught from day one to question. To question what I heard from pastors, teachers, friends, parents, everyone. To go straight to the source and seek the Truth for what it is. I was taught to think critically, and to speak up, to ask questions and not to hide behind religion. I was curious. I questioned. I doubted every second of every day, but then it all changed. It changed when I met Christ, met the God of the universe. For real. I’m done with speculations, done with vague ideas and strict principles. But I’m not done with change. Every day something changes… a new idea, a new fear, a new realization. But you know what doesn’t change? Jesus Christ, and what he did for me. He died so that I might have LIFE. Life eternal, despite my worthlessness. Because seriously, without Christ my life SUCKS. All I am is another speck of person, walking this earth, living for what I feel and what I think I know. But what do I really know, when there’s so much more outside of time? I guess I’m just saying that your post is remarkably inaccurate when it comes to living a life that’s really rescued by the love of God.
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it,…
The end of my faith in god.
This is a facebook message I sent last September to a kid from the church I used to attend [when I was a christian] who was inquiring about things regarding me. This is the abridged version of how I [as much as I hate this phrase] ‘lost my faith’.
I was a devout christian most of my life, though from the looks of things and from what people had seemed to tell me about myself, I wasn’t a very good christian, and that really got me down. I wondered why god would make people like us and we’re supposed to believe in him, but not give me the desire to do everything it meant to be a christian like I saw in my friends. Why would he make me a bad christian? So I went through periods of doubt and self loathing and blah blah blah. Needless to say, most of the time I was miserable, but I still tried my best to please god.
Then, that year of Student Life Camp at Baylor is when I stopped believing in god. I was going through another period of questioning things and was seeking answers desperately so I could get back on track with being a good christian. I was looking to camp to give me those answers. Well, I was too impressed with the pastor speaker guy we had that year, I thought he was an idiot. I tried to ignore that and I figured god had something else hidden somewhere else in camp that he was going to reveal to me.
Well, that night we were in that room in the building, that school room with the desks you know. Mark asked us what went on with us that day. It was an emotional day for everyone there…except me. People stood up and told sob stories about things god did for them. I listened intently and tried to learn from them. Then you stood up. You stood up and you started crying as you spoke. You brought nearly the entire room to tears. You were filled with such emotion, as if you actually felt what you thought you felt. Then you said these words: “I’ve never felt this close to god in my entire life…” I hung on to those words, they stuck out to me the most. I was like, “He said the word FELT.” I analyzed it and tore it apart to it’s very core.
. I sat there and said, “Kyle, why do you believe in god?” I legitimately asked myself. I wanted my real answer. You know what it was? “I don’t know…” That was my answer. I found out I didn’t know why I believed in god in the first place. So I asked myself then if I didn’t know, why did I keep up with it. Turns out, I didn’t know why I believed in god, the only reason I did was because that’s what my parents taught me when I was young and they told me it was true. I put way too much stock in what my parents and other people said.
Before that meeting was over, I was an agnostic. I came to realize that god was a feeling. Camp was a tool used to make that feeling more real. Having doubts or feel like you’re not close enough with god? Go to camp with a bunch of other people who feel the same way! We’ll play songs in a giant stadium and cry while we sing, listen to sermons and read our bibles under the trees. Someone is BOUND to feel closer to god after that. That’s still the thing, you’re going to FEEL closer to god. I knew that was the answer to all my questions I had been seeking for so long. It was so simple yet so wonderful. Because you know, humans are capable of feeling anything if they will themselves to feel it strong enough. The feeling of god is no exception.
Here is a real world example from a scientific study I read about:
There are 2 groups of people. Group A and group B. Group A are put in a room and group B are put in a room. Group A is given a bowl of punch to drink that has alcohol in it, however they are told it does NOT contain alcohol. Group B is likewise given a bowl of punch, this time it does NOT contain alcohol, however they are told it does. Group B starts acting drunk on the regular punch before group A even realize that they are drunk.
You see, you’re told something, and you believe it. I’m sure group B felt pretty stupid after they realized they weren’t drunk. So yeah, that is the short version of why I stopped believing in god.
Why religious?
Humankind yearns for more than what life really is, which explains part of the origin of religions. It’s nice to imagine something like a god watching over you and you getting all this nice shit when you die. So your parents follow that religion, well, so will you. Because you’re then taught it, and taught oh you better not question this religious stuff, and all that smart stuff is just mumbo jumbo! Just keep your mouth shut, and your eyes closed, and stay in line just like ever other religious person of your faith. You’re not taught to think, you’re taught to be quiet. So, you’re brought up as a christian, no knowledge of anything logical, and ingrained in your mind is the process of not questioning, so naturally you’re entire drive of curiosity has been cleared. No natural yearning for learning. hehe, anyway, in destroying this drive, you’ll never learn anything useful, which also, in your religion, will make you afraid of change. New information is change. You’re afraid of this, especially because you do not understand this. So you definately won’t learn anything new, and you’ll be taught that you’re going to teach your kids to follow all of this same path, so it’ll continue for generations.
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